S2 Ep6: Sex Tech with Eleanor Hancock

In this episode Jennie and Damian talk to Eleanor Hancock who works as a Sex Tech researcher for Kiiroo.

They discuss Sex tech including some of the products that Kiiroo make, and how technology can be used to make sex toys more accessible for disabled people.
Eleanor gives us some insight into how she thinks Sex Tech will progress in the future including the emergence of Sex robots.

Transcript

Audio recording: 0:09

Welcome to Enhance the UK's Undressing Disability podcast where we strip back all things taboo on sex and disability.

Jennie Williams: 0:24

Welcome to Undressing Disability Podcast. I'm one of your hosts Jennie Williams,

Damian Weatherald: 0:29

and I'm the other host, Damian Weatherald. And today we're going to be talking to Eleanor Hancock from Kiiroo and she is a sex tech researcher. And she's going to be talking about all things sex tech, including sex robots, male masturbators, and vibrators. So let's see what happens. So Eleanor, let's start with can you please tell us how sex tech could help people with disabilities have pleasurable lives?

Eleanor Hancock: 0:52

Okay, so, yeah, as Damian mentioned, my name's Eleanor Hancock, and I've been researching this area for a number of years, so I think it's useful to have context to that research. Just because it's spanned over quite a few years now. So I originally got into this area, because I was researching how sex workers were using the technology and so also at the time, I was working at a homeless shelter. So I was exposed to quite a varying amount of sex workers, so it still would be street based sex workers who I'd meet through the White Chapel, which was the name of the homeless organisation I was working at. But then obviously, through my research, I was also talking to people that were primarily online, so that might be webcam workers, it might be online escorts, it might be people that work at escort agencies so they weren't necessarily managing their own website, but the way that they had met their clientele was through the Escort agencies website. So obviously, that was really, really interesting. And a lot of the people that I spoke to who were working in the sex industry had a varying amount of experience with disabled clients. And so I was introduced to the idea of sex work and disability through that research. And then I went on to do a master's degree at the University of Liverpool, where we focus more on the overall benefits of sex technology. So one of the first things I thought about this sort of technology was that it took a lot of the embarrassment and shame that often people do sort of have when they're having a sexual encounter with somebody in real life. So for example, you know, when I spoke to some of the sex workers about their disabled clients, one of the most overarching themes for them was that it was such a sensitive situation, sometimes, I'm not saying that you actually needed to be trained in it, but you really did need a level of experience and the sex workers I spoke to, that had the most experience with disabled clients were ones that sort of really, really took it so seriously, like, they had such a level of education about some of the disabilities that their clients had, about different positions, about toys you could use, you know, it was really invested in that sort of experience and they did also note how it can be uncomfortable those first few seconds. Clients have sometimes said to them, you know, I appreciate what you're trying to do, but this just isn't working, and having the ability to communicate with their clients on something that perhaps wasn't face to face. So you know, text sex chat, things like that, made it a lot easier. And I would agree that I think that sex tech provides a platform, so people don't necessarily always have to feel shame, or feel embarrassment and can communicate what they want. A lot of people feel a lot more comfortable asking awkward things via text sometimes, or putting things in an email where you can see everything that you want and read through things before asking. So, yeah, I feel like sex tech provided a bit of a platform and a barrier. So people didn't have to feel shame and could ask for what they want. Secondly, and by the nature of sex technology, obviously provides people with an opportunity to connect that perhaps wouldn't. So, when I first started doing research in this area, I remember watching a video about a wheelchair user that was basically talking about how dating in London was totally inaccessible to them because how many tube stops can you actually access in a wheelchair? How many places can we go for a date where I'm in my wheelchair where it's going to be easy for me to do this? And so I think that the medium of the internet and these interactive toys and the apps and all that that comes with it, provides people a bit of a safe space to connect. I'm not sure if you two would agree there.

Jennie Williams: 5:17

It's an interesting concept, isn't it? There's always a flipside or a downside to everything, isn't there? Is there that downside to sex tech? You used the word barrier, which is a really interesting word to use, do you think it's maybe also causing a barrier, that we are not talking or communicating in the way that that we should, how we did prior mobile phones, texting, because we can all be a keyboard warrior, can't we? And we can also say good things, but also we can say not so nice things. So have you experienced that downside to it as well?

Eleanor Hancock: 6:01

I think there always will be with online communication, there will always be that downside. And I do think people act differently when perhaps they feel that they are slightly more anonymous. But I do also think on that side that extra steps are being taken to try and remove that now. So for example, we have a Discord server at Kiiroo and so if you're not familiar discord, basically, it's a platform that you can use to text chat, have video calls, have group video calls, it's really popular with like gamers, but it's really increased in use, I think there's like 40 million users there now. And you can sort of have a server and invite people to it. So imagine a WhatsApp group chat but times 10, more features, it's a bit like that. And within our server, though, we have really, really strict rules. So we say straightaway, that this is a sex positive space, so shouldn't be any kink shaming, people shouldn't feel like they can't express what they are into in the bedroom, or what they like, in terms of their own masturbation, obviously, it goes without saying that we have made it a safe space for sex workers. So you know, we have a really strict policy that if you're a content creator on there, you know, you've got your own webcam, channel, or whatever it is, you're own Only Fans, if anyone harasses you, if anybody asks you for freebies constantly, or anything like that, we can just kick them straight away. Because we think that when you create these virtual spaces, I do think they need some curation to make sure that they are safe, because obviously you do get people that take advantage of that. But generally speaking, I do feel that another negative sort of thing that you mentioned there, was that perhaps we communicate too much virtually, and we're forfeiting virtual communication for online communication. But I think that it's a lot of the time, it's only ever used as a substrate, if that makes sense. And I think that, for example, a lot of research suggests that the more Facebook friends you have online doesn't take away from the friends that you've got in person. Actually, you'll find that people that have more online connections, generally tend to have more in real life as well. I feel like sometimes the negative aspects of this technology, are sometimes sensationalised a bit, sometimes I think that the media will have us believe that in 10 years, no one's gonna leave the house anymore, everything will get delivered by Amazon, and you'll never speak to anybody again. You know, and virtual sex is part of that, but I really don't think it is. I do think that it can work really, really well with anything that you do in real life.

Damian Weatherald: 8:51

I think there's the whole thing like you said about the negativity in the media and things. It's like when you see science fiction programmes and oh, sex robots are gonna take over the world, and there's not going to be people having real sex. It's that negativity I think it's trying to take away from that as well.

Eleanor Hancock: 9:09

Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, I think a lot of the reporting about sex robots is massively sensationalised. So obviously, when I first started this research, as I mentioned, I was sort of looking at it from a sex worker framework, so how is this technology going to change the lives of sex workers? And, a lot of the media at the time was saying, sex robots want to replace sex workers, in 10 years, the red light district won't exist, it'll all be A.I. And what I found was that no one was actually really asking sex workers what they thought so as part of my interview, and I actually used to ask sex workers what do you think? I used to sit there with my laptop and show them these different articles, some more academic some more like these sensationalised news articles. And, in these news articles, it was funny because they would even have quotes, like, sex workers should be really worried. But most of the time when I'd show sex workers, these articles, they just laughed. I remember one just turned around really bluntly to me and was like, that's not going to replace my job because that robot won't be able to have a drink with you, would it really laugh at your jokes. A lot of people take escorts out for dinner, and get that sort of realism from the interaction. How would you do that in the same way with a robot? Like, how can you enjoy a drink with a robot when you know that alcohol isn't going to affect it? You know, it's just little things like that. And, again, touching on what I said earlier, quite a few articles pointed to the idea that sex robots will be perfect for disabled people, because they'll just solve the problem. And again, when I showed that to sex workers, they were like, you've got no idea, to maintain some of these clients I've genuinely had to go home and do a lot of research about the medication that they're on, about how their illness might progress. You know, there were just so many elements to it, it was just sort of funny to show them because I almost worried, you know, back then that they would sort of read it and be like Oh, my God, maybe I am worried. But, they didn't even scratch the surface, really. So I think that people probably don't understand the sex industry when they make claims like that and I don't think actually, fundamentally, they understand people and intimacy.

Jennie Williams: 11:34

It's easy to sensationalise things, isn't it? And I think, if nothing else, the lockdown has shown us that we need interaction, humans need it. And yes sex toy sales went up, I believe, during the lockdown, people were desperate still to get out and hug people, you know? And actually, if you asked lots of people, what did they miss the most? it wasn't even about sex. It was, I miss hugging people, I miss having that human touch and that interaction. And there's this ridiculous misconception that disabled people only ever want to speak to the sex worker and that's it. That's ridiculous. Most people don't want to just do that they want, as you said, that intimacy, that conversation, going out for dinner, everything that comes with that. And as amazing as technology is there's a limit, I guess to what that can do. But talking of limits, what are the limits? Where do you think it's going? What do you see happening in the next five or 10 years?

Eleanor Hancock: 12:40

I think in the next five or 10 years, I mean, so I'll treat the sex robots and the sex tech a bit differently. So for the sex robots, my prediction for them, to be honest, in five years, I still don't think we will have some fully fledged Sex Robot that's integrated with A.I that could even have a believable conversation with you. At the moment, the closest they've got is a company in San Francisco called Real Dolls and it has a lot of crossover with robotics because originally, they were making these really, really lifelike dolls, but then they spent years developing an animatronic head. And the idea is obviously that you would have a head and you could put that on different dolls, or different bodies. But, I think even when you speak to Harmony, you can see it's a robot, you're not at all fooled. It doesn't really have any smart capabilities, it literally is just an animatronic head that can move really, and can sort of talk and recognise a bit of speech around it. But yeah, they really are a long way off and I think that we need to see more development in other areas which involve robots. For me, it's crazy to think that this company in San Francisco are going to develop anything before the US Army do. And I'm not saying the US Army would obviously build a Sex Robot, but you would hope the amount of funding and money that the military get, they will definitely be able to develop a very sophisticated and lifelike robot. And I imagine that we need to actually see these really fully functioning robots in other areas of society before other areas that are a lot more underfunded, like sex robots, are able to pick up on them. But I do think that sex doll brothels and things aren't becoming more prevalent all the time. There's one in Berlin, and again, that got more popular over the lockdown, called Kokeshi which is sort of like a sex doll but I don't want to give too much away because it's like an experience, but they sort of have things that interact with you in the room when you're with her to give it that lifelike feel. And I know that that got more popular during the lockdown, so I definitely think there is a market for it. But for me, the sex Tech industry is far far ahead of sex robots. And I'm really, really interested to see where female masturbation is going to go because for example, our toys at Kiiroo connect up and sync with interactive content, but as we know, most pornography is made by men for men. And I do think that once we have more possibilities in this interactive area, there'll be so much more for women, or people who identify as women. For example, I've already seen online women often asking for vibrators that can sync up with audio, and masturbation instructions and things like that. So I think that will be really exciting to see in the future.

Damian Weatherald: 15:59

Yeah, you can see it being linked to audio erotica. It's a massive area at the moment. I think it's Girl on the Net, and a couple others who do things like that and it seems to be really popular. Like you said about the sex dolls hotels, the first time I heard about that I was a bit, hmm, will that take off, but it just seems to have been a massive market all of a sudden. I don't think there's any in the UK at the moment, but I can see that happening too.

Eleanor Hancock: 16:30

We did have one in the UK, apparently it was in Scotland but I think it was a bit of an amateur type thing because the guy that set it up, had to shut it down quite fast because of what his neighbours were saying, which you can imagine they probably weren't that happy with it. But I also do believe there was something in London, but I think sometimes it's hard to see the legitimacy of whether they're actually open or not. Like, for example, I know there was one open in Barcelona and vice went and covered it and everything but from what I can see on Reddit, people can't actually make a booking or get in touch. So yeah, it's a bit of a weird one.

Damian Weatherald: 17:06

Yeah, I can see that appealing to some people with disabilities. I don't know if you agree, Jennie, because it would take that awkwardness away.

Jennie Williams: 17:14

I think if people want to even experience using a doll, they're not cheap are they? you're talking 1000s of pounds for a doll. And as we've experienced, if you do want to have the experience of using a doll, and that's your choice as a disabled person and if you need care, it's not just as simple as that, because you have to have your carers to agree to set it up for you, to move it in positions for you, to clean it, that's a really big thing for people. So it's not just right, I'm going to buy a doll, and let's get it delivered. It's everything that comes with it as well. So maybe it'd be a good way for people to experience it and see if they if they liked it. I just want to loop back actually, because you were talking about that platform, you just said like a big WhatsApp, and I remember my brain kind of exploding. I can barely keep up with my whatsapp's as it is. So how do people access that because that sounds really interesting.

Eleanor Hancock: 18:13

So we have 500 people on there at the moment and the idea of it obviously, is because we have an app, Feel Connect, and the app allows you to basically control your sex toys but it also gives you the potential to connect with a remote partner who can then have the control instead. But obviously, what we found is that people needed a place to look for a remote partner, so originally, there was a subreddit called toy control so people would put in hey, I'm a male, and I've got the key on, I'm looking for a remote partner. But obviously, if you're in the mood, and you don't get a response back, and then it's not until you log back in next day, and you've got a response from someone else, hey, I want to connect, the moments gone. So we made the discord service, and people could do it in real time and you can actually see who is online and who's not, just in the same way as WhatsApp, you can see if people are active. But it's also quite a bit of a community as well. So, for example, I'm looking at my computer here, we've got quite a few channels in the server and some of it is really just, you know, music talk and things like that and a lot of it is user generated, so as much as I created the server for Kiiroo, it's other people who have come on and put in loads of leg work. And we do have a lot of people chilling on there. So, we've got general chat, Feel Connect Chat, pet parade, so obviously people are sharing images of their pets. Yeah, it all goes on there.

Jennie Williams: 19:45

Wow, this is a whole world that I didn't know anything about, I have to tell you, this is fascinating me.

Eleanor Hancock: 19:50

It's good. You should join our server.

Jennie Williams: 19:52

So do you have to have one of your products to be able to join?

Eleanor Hancock: 19:56

No, because basically as well you could obviously control someone's kiiroo toy without having the product yourself. Does that make sense?

Jennie Williams: 20:07

So tell people how they join if they want to.

Eleanor Hancock: 20:11

There's a direct invite link, if you want to join, which I can give to you guys, you can also just search on the discord website, you can put in Kiiroo Connect and then you should be allowed to join from there but it's normally like a little invite link. We have that link on our Reddit, it's on a little button on the side, so if you just go onto the Kiiroo Reddit and then on the right hand side, if you're using desktop, it will say Discord server, there's a button that says Join Now you can join directly from there.

Damian Weatherald: 20:41

We'll add the link to our hub as well.

Jennie Williams: 20:43

Thank you. Yeah, we will put that all up because I'm sure there's going to be a lot of people really interested. If people are just going on that to share photos of their pets though, that's really questionable. I'm sure there are other better platforms to share information. But okay, that's fascinating. I didn't even know that existed, I will definitely be checking it out.

Eleanor Hancock: 20:59

Yeah, definitely check it out.

Jennie Williams: 21:01

So what are some of the products that you're working on at the moment, if you're allowed to tell us.

Eleanor Hancock: 21:10

So basically, we have a number of products at Kiiroo, so obviously some are for people that have vaginas, and some are for people that have penises. So this is the Keon. So you have a number of sleeves here that you can insert into the Keon.

Jennie Williams: 21:39

I was gonna say for everybody listening, we've got some amazing visuals going on but again, what we will be doing is we can share some of these photos. And again, go onto the hub, you will see and like connect with Eleanor and you'll be able to see all of these products.

Damian Weatherald: 21:59

And there will be a review of the Keon going on shortly onto our website.

Eleanor Hancock: 22:05

Fabulous. Well, I just wanted to do a little verbal summary, essentially, we have male and female toys that can be controlled via the app so that gives you the potential to either control your toy from the app, which I think is quite a relief for some people and not having to play about with the settings of the toy, being able to control everything from your hand and your phone, I think can be a lot easier for some people. And then obviously, we have the male masturbators so I think the best way for me to summarise without showing, but it's basically like an automatic handjob but obviously, just like the female toys, you can also control that directly from your app. So, back to your first question you asked me, how would these products help anybody living with disabilities? Well, I think that the power to control things from the app is literally quite life saving for some people to be honest with you. I know that we have a lot of female users that said that when they're just manually controlling their toy, there's so many times where it's been difficult, where they've been in a position where they've not been able to move the way that they want to move. And so yeah, I think that it's a lot more user friendly to have that app control. And then obviously, as well, the great thing about the Kion is that another user can then step in and control it. They can control the speeds, how fast it's going and then they can also control the stroke lengths as well. So if you want long strokes, you can do it, if you want short ones, you can do it. And then we have a number of sleeves that go in the Keon and that's called the Feel Star collection and they are modelled on porn stars.

Damian Weatherald: 24:04

When I saw the Keon the first time, I was just amazed by the fact that when it says on the box, I can do 240 strokes a minute I was lthinking no chance and then timed it watching it on our dildo and I was like, wow that's unbelievable. So it's quite frightening.

Jennie Williams: 24:21

You have too much time on your hands Damien to actually time that.

Damian Weatherald: 24:25

Far too much time, all in the name of research.

Jennie Williams: 24:29

Everything that you say in the name of research, people are like you've got the best job ever. So actually, just one question on that, is there any voice recognition with the apps?

Eleanor Hancock: 24:41

No. So there's no voice recognition with the app share and I think that is something that we really need to look into. I think that to be honest, we were looking at this because isn't us that would be developing the voice recognition software, as much as we can do some stuff, we can't do that. And we did look at a couple of companies that could have given us that software but as you can imagine, it's just so, so expensive. So, I think that once that sort of price has come down a bit, we'll be able to look at putting it into the app but generally speaking, voice recognition is just so expensive.

Jennie Williams: 25:20

I think it's really exciting, though, you know, because we talk about this all the time with Enhance the UK, this is what we do, and it's so important that access, it's about looking at making things accessible, not exclusively for disabled people, because I don't know any disabled people who say, we want toys that are specifically for us, you know, that's completely othering. And just hearing things that with technology that are being made, always having disabled people in mind, or always having that access in mind, you're going to end up with amazing products, that people are excited by.

Damian Weatherald: 25:57

And that's one thing I like about Kiiroo is the fact that you work with other companies as well so you know, there's a lot of thought going into it because I know you work with all my board, and companies like that, and the more people who are looking at this, technology can only get better and help more people as well.

Eleanor Hancock: 26:15

I agree. And obviously from when I was doing my research, I've always seen the benefits in this area. So obviously, some of that was more down to the mental and psychological aspects, like removing the barriers, providing that virtual space where people can even meet that perhaps are denied of a bit in real life for one reason or the other. But obviously, it's actually what the product does, so, the 240 strokes a minute, let's be honest, that is great for someone that has limited hand mobility, but I still thought there was a long way to go in terms of making them accessible. And that's something we can admit, looking at that product now. But we've invested quite a lot of money in basically design in a couple of attachments and add ons, that will really help and I can't say too much now but that's sort of why we work together a bit, isn't it Damian? Looking at how we can make these products as inclusive as possible, but as you said, in a way, that's not only for disabled people, because I think a great sex toy is a great sex toy, doesn't matter who it is for, who it's been made for in mind. And I also like the idea of this is a product that is for everybody but there's a small attachment that you can have to add on to it, that will make it more accessible for you, as a user, I think that is so much better than, Oh, my God, I've got to be othered, and go down this road of oh, I can only access these and I think it also puts pressure on us as a company because for example, once we've got these first attachments for Keon, well, then we'll be looking at the next toys, how do we make them more accessible? Because for us, you want your whole collection to be accessible, don't you, as opposed to just one or two. And so I think that that's quite an interesting aspect of it, I'm hoping that it will have a real snowball effect. Because the more we go down this road, and you know, the more work I can do with you Damian, the more I can learn, and tell people in my team.

Damian Weatherald: 28:27

Yeah, and that's one thing we want to do at Enhance is work with people, try and put our point of view across, put you in touch with people who can like give advice and things like that. And I think it can only be a positive thing because like Jennie said, we don't want products that are just for disabled people, because that just makes it taboo again, I think wwe just need that open conversation. You do see some negativity regarding people been worried about using apps and things like that, is there anything you can say to allay those fears.

Eleanor Hancock: 29:02

I can only say what my CTO used to tell me, and it was if someone could show us a better and safer way of doing our app, which at the moment doesn't really save any personal data or anything like that, tell us and we'll do it. Touch wood there's never been a security issue, or anything like that and I do, again, go back to what we said earlier, I think that a couple of years ago when these products were first coming out there were loads of these articles like Butt plug gets hacked and all this other jazz. Yeah, the articles aren't doing justice to what's actually happening, a lot of it has been totally, totally blown out of portion, like the biggest blunder in Sex Tech was with Revive where essentially it was more that they didn't update the terms and conditions that they were actively stealing information from somebody. They basically just didn't tell people what data would be saved. It wasn't like oh my god, we've stolen 4000 people's intimate data about how they use vibrators, it really wasn't like that, it was more just actually, they saved a bit too much. They were using a bit too much than they let on in terms and conditions, which is the short story of it. But, a lot of it is very sensationalised and we we don't save any information about how your toys are used or anything like that.

Damian Weatherald: 30:24

Yeah, that's the one thing negative with the media is, they will always look for the negative. Like you said, they look for that negative story, rather than saying, Look how much sex tech or for example, the Keon can change someone's life, you'd never see that story unless on like, maybe something like Vice but you would never see it in the mainstream media.

Eleanor Hancock: 30:43

I agree but I also do think there's a real stigma around male sex toys. And my personal thoughts on this, of why this has developed is I think it comes down to the stigma that men face in society in general and also how that affects women. So for example, I think, whether it's the patriarchy or religion here, but there's always been this idea that women shouldn't be that sexually adventurous, and shouldn't really have that much experience, whereas unfortunately, I think that bias then goes on to men as well, because it's like, oh, well, men should be really sexually experienced and should be having loads of sex all the time, and should be these really hyper sexual people. And I think sometimes that impacts how male sex toys are viewed, because it's like, oh, well, why aren't you out, you know, trying to sleep with as many people as you can, and it's like, well, maybe because people don't actually feel that they have to do that or even want to do that, you know.

Damian Weatherald: 31:42

Yeah, I completely get that, we have had letters to the Love Lounge especially from men or penis owners, who feel ashamed for using, for example, a fleshlight, or any sleeve, really, they just feel a shame that they've used it, and I completely see where they're coming from, but they shouldn't feel like, that there's no need to feel like that. For years, it was Sex in the City and the rabbit became so popular but there's never been a male version of that.

Eleanor Hancock: 32:16

I agree. I think that the male industry, has probably been a bit subdued in the sense that female sex toys sort of go hand in hand with female empowerment, and like the sexual revolution for females. And I think as well, it's things like the orgasm gap, which make it a lot easier to market and advertise that to the world because it's like, oo you need this. Whereas obviously, for guys, you're supposed to be these hypersexual people that shouldn't need anything like that and it's just not true. The benefits of men using sex toys, as well, is things like stamina training, you know let's be honest there's so many reasons why there's websites and threads and forums and Reddit posts about guys worrying about the stamina, and how long they can last in bed and loads of people use sex toys as a way to improve, to get better, to have that, barrier of shame that is associated with masturbation, or sex, or whatever, and you can just do it in your own time and your own comfort and get better. But that benefit, you don't really see that a lot and I mean, I've spoken to a lot of sex therapists who have said that there are so many different medication people are taking for premature ejaculation so why would we not push something that's non medical and that actually has a track record of helping?

Damian Weatherald: 33:45

Yeah, I completely agree. This podcast has been brilliant. We could probably talk for hours about this. I know I certainly can. Jennie is nodding away.

Jennie Williams: 33:57

I think I know, quite a lot, a fair amount, but just even hearing you talk about the forums, I didn't even know anything about that so that's really interesting and I think that for so many of our listeners, it's kind of the initial baby steps, of opening their minds really to knowing what's out there because let's face it, there's definitely still this generational gap isn't there? Probably when my children are growing up, and they're very young, they'll have listened to things like what we're talking about and think it's not even a thing, gender will become less and less of a thing. And stigma become less and less of a thing, but it's still very much real, especially for people who are older, and even more so for people who happen to have disabilities as well. So, thank you so much Eleanor. This has been absolutely fascinating and I have no doubt we will be inviting you back to continue this conversation and share products that that come out. If anybody does want any more information all of that will be up on the hub, and Eleanor will be a member on there so you can connect and ask any questions, if people need to know anything about your products, I'm sure that they will be in touch with you about that. So thank you so much once again, it's been brilliant.

Eleanor Hancock: 35:16

No worries. And I'd just like to quickly say that if anyone does want to contact me and they have any interest in these toys, please don't hesitate to ask me. You know, I understand that sometimes people might feel quite afraid to spend lots of money on a product that might not work for them. Sometimes, there might be an issue with income or things like that so honestly just message me and I can see what you can do. You know, I'm really interested about researching these products more. So yeah, just give me a message and hopefully we can sort you out.

Damian Weatherald: 35:47

So check out www.kiiroo.com and you can have a look at all the products on there as well.

Audio recording: 35:55

Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like any more information about the work we do under the Undressing Disability campaign, then go on to our website at enhancetheuk.org and click on the Undressing Disability tab.