S2 Ep 4: Loneliness & Dating with Kelly Gordon

This week, our hosts Jennie and Damian chat with Kelly Gordon about loneliness and dating as a disabled person.  

Kelly Gordon is a 32 year old entrepreneur and consultant based in the West Midlands, UK. She has Spinal Muscular Atrophy Type 3 which is a genetic disability meaning for her, that she uses an electric wheelchair to get around. Kelly's condition is progressive and has meant that she has faced losing her ability throughout her life especially when her body faced big changes and challenges such as pregnancy. 

Kelly has always been feisty and outspoken so you wouldn't assume she would find dating with a disability difficult but we learn that this wasn't always the case via a funny story about the lengths she went to on a date, hiding that she was a wheelchair user!

This podcast looks at society's perception of disability and how this can impact disabled people in their disclosure of impairments.  This could be in the dating arena or in the workplace, which can ultimately lead to loneliness. 

Transcript

Audio recording: 0:09

Welcome to Enhance the UK Undressing Disability podcast where we strip back all things taboo on sex and disability.

Jennie Williams: 0:25

Hello, and today we are talking to the lovely Kelly Gordon, who's a very old friend of ours. So hello, Kelly, thank you for coming on to the podcast. Traditionally, Kel, how we always start our podcast is that we ask our guests to give a quick audio description of themselves. So would you mind doing that before we get chatting?

Kelly Gordon: 0:46

Of course, that's a great idea as well, it's a really good thing to do. So I'm happy to oblige. So today, I am a wheelchair user, you can't really see my wheelchair, you can see my backrest a little bit and you can see me from the waist up. I am a white woman, I'm 32, hopefully don't look 32. But I don't know.

Jennie Williams: 1:05

You do not look 32, I guarantee you that.

Kelly Gordon: 1:08

Thank you. I've got long dark hair. And I actually have makeup on today, which is good. I'm not normally ready at this time of the day. And I'm wearing a beanie over my long dark hair, which is a mustardy colour. And I'm just wearing a black T shirt as well. And you can see I've got two tattoos on my forearms of Swallows that are visible at the moment. But that's about all of me that you can see, I think! Let me know if I've missed anything out.

Jennie Williams: 1:38

No, well, you know what, no one's gonna be able to see it anyway cos it's a podcast, but it's really nice because I sound like 100 years old saying this Kel, but you've got a very edgy look, I probably got a 42 year old mum's look - which I've got no makeup on at the moment. And you've always got your makeup and your tattoos and your hair and you always look bang on trend. I mean, thank you for coming on as I know how busy you are. You're a very busy working Mum of two young children with loads of projects going on yourself and working really hard. But today, really in the podcast, we wanted to talk a little bit about relationships and loneliness is really the title of the podcast. But before we start that, would you mind just telling people a little bit about your impairment?

Kelly Gordon: 2:33

Yeah, sure. So I've got spinal muscular atrophy type three, which is a muscle wastage condition. So basically, as I've gotten older, I've gone through things like puberty, pregnancy, my conditions deteriorated. So type three is the, I suppose you'd say mildest type of SMA. So a lot of babies that are born with type 1, they'll struggle to breathe and to swallow whereas with type three, you don't really notice it. I was walking, initially, as a baby, early, I was walking by the time I was one and I was walking quite conventionally, I guess, as well. So nobody really knew that I had SMA. So I was completely just functioning as you would expect a child to function. So no Health Visitors flagged anything. So it was quite interesting, really. But then, as you begin to grow, your muscles get gradually weaker. And you can't do anything really to stop that progression. So, I was walking full time until I was around 11 or 12. And then I started to use an electric wheelchair full time. So I use that all day every day. Now I can't actually mobilise at all, which is something I'm trying to change with the help of science, but we'll see what happens with that one. So unfortunately, recently, not only did I lose a lot of ability when I became pregnant with Hunter, my one and a half year old, but I also broke my ankle, which is really difficult for people with SMA to recover from injuries like that, because obviously you're off your feet for such a long time in cast and you can't weight bear. So that really changed the game for me in terms of my abilities, but also in accepting help from others. Because I've always tried to be as independent as possible, but then to be constantly hoisted, and things like that, that wasn't something that I was used to. So really over the past year and a half, two years, I've gone through quite a lot in terms of my disability and progression in my condition.

Jennie Williams: 4:53

Well, if you don't mind, I'm going to take you back to being 11. So how was that then essentially being a full time power chair user? How was that for you psychologically? Because that's when you're kind of really caring about what you look like and what people think of you, etc.

Kelly Gordon: 5:14

Yeah, I think that was really difficult actually. And I think it's something that I've come to terms with a lot more during podcasts like this and talking to people on my podcast, because it gets you thinking, and it gets you expressing these things to other people. And then it makes you think, actually, God, I can't believe that happened. But I remember back to when I started secondary school, like 11, 12, when I started to use a power chair full time. I just remember going into school and thinking I'm so excited to be here. And I probably looked like a right loser anyway, my scraped back hair, and my big blaser and my moon face, but I thought I was the coolest kid ever. And I honestly got bullied, but I didn't realise but I used to go around without my foot plates on and I used to walk my legs across the floor, because I was used to walking prior to that and it was what was more comfortable for me. And I just remember hearing one of the older kids say, Oh, why is she doing that for she can't even walk. And then it was then really from year seven and that age where I started to become more self conscious. Probably for about two years, I was really aware of my disability. And I really focused on trying to not look disabled as much as possible and sort of fade into the background, which was really sad, actually. But I think it's such a image conscious time that the kids that were pointing these things out probably weren't confident either. But it just really makes you think, I would have carried on blissfully unaware if I hadn't have had comments like that. And it is really sad.

Damian Weatherald: 7:02

No, I was just gonna say I think it's one of those things you hear quite often now about people who've hidden their disabilities. I did it I know, for a long, long time. And I think going through school with a disability is hard anyway. This podcast going out as part of the loneliness campaign, did you then experience any loneliness because of that going through school?

Kelly Gordon: 7:24

I think as a disabled person, especially a wheelchair user, I definitely experienced loneliness. Because even if I was with friends, for example, you know, we could be on the playing field, and they could work walk slightly up a bank. So then you'd be at the bottom of the bank. And you'd be kind of thinking, oh, are people looking at me? Are people thinking, Why isn't she with them? Or is she on her own? And it wasn't really the loneliness that I felt, it was the anxiety around that perceived loneliness that I felt, and I was always very conscious of having to do things for myself, because I didn't want people to think that I was incapable, or that I needed someone to be with me. And I've probably still got that now, as an adult, I've just started taking my son over the road to school by myself, which is the only thing I've ever been able to do just me and him since he was a baby. And even just opening doors and things, we work together as a team to do it. But I'm very aware that I don't want other parents to think oh god, she's got her kid helping her with care, or she's got her kid to do this because she can't do it. She's incapable. It's more about the perception of others that I struggle with, especially when it comes to my son because I hate thinking that people think that I'm an incapable parent. So I think it's probably shifted from that initial loneliness and feeling of anxiety to then transferring that onto the feelings I feel when I'm with my kids now, which is really sad because it is just around perceptions. It's not something that you'd struggle with otherwise, probably. So yeah, it's definitely a tricky one.

Jennie Williams: 9:16

Regardless, as a parent, you do worry, even if people say you don't, you do worry about what other people think. Oh they're eating food that they shouldn't really be, oh god they're eating chips or you know all these silly things that we shouldn't really worry about because everyone does it. But yeah, I can quite imagine that actually, because from a very young age, you've gone out of your way to prove that you're independent. And then suddenly this perception, you are one of the most independent busy women that I know Kel, you know with two small children. But you almost want to have that individual conversation with everyone but why should you?

Kelly Gordon: 9:57

Yeah, exactly, there was always that need to prove myself and you end up wanting to tell everyone well actually, this is my job, this is what I do. You know, especially around work, you've said that I'm busy, and I've got lots going on but I feel like that with the teachers, you want to tell the teachers that you're somewhat accomplished and a professional because they just expect you to be at home. And there's nothing wrong with being at home. But it's just the perception that all disabled people don't want to work or can't work, and take benefits. And you know, that's not the case in some places. I think everybody wants to do what's right for them and that's fair enough, but I just hate the assumption from others that you can't be accomplished, you can't have things you like to do or want to do. It's just very much that they put you in a box as soon as they meet you. And that's the frustrating part because it makes you want to prove yourself when you shouldn't have to.

Damian Weatherald: 11:00

Yeah, mainstream media has a lot to answer for where that comes in. And even social media nowadays, because everyone has this perception of what disability is. Yeah, and we're not doing anything as a society to change that.

Kelly Gordon: 11:14

Definitely. I mean, there are some good - I always say, with COVID now the one good thing to come out of COVID is that people can work remotely. And that's more widely accepted. And I hope that we do stick to that, because it's something that it opens the door for so many people, I mean, even people with just generally busy lives and kids, it's easier to be able to jump on your computer from home, than have to rush over to the office, figure out traffic, do this and that. Yes, it's lovely to see people, but everybody should have equal opportunities. And it's actually frustrating that it took COVID, for everybody to realise that and to be offered these opportunities. I've been speaking to people that couldn't go to university before because they couldn't do it from home. It wasn't seen acceptable to do the particular course from home. But now thanks to COVID, they're allowed and it just blows my mind. And you're so right about mainstream media as well. The one thing I've stopped doing is talking about negative stuff, because I used to get asked all the time about disability and, you know, have you ever not been able to get into a club? Have you ever not been able to get onto a bus? And you know, those things are important if there's been a genuine injustice, but it seems like the press want to dig stories like that up instead of empowering people, and talking about the positive stories that come from people's everyday lives. And that's so frustrating to me. So I've actually officially stopped giving statements on stuff like that now, because it just paints the wrong picture of what our lives are like, and it just frustrates me no end.

Jennie Williams: 12:59

I really agree with that. I mean, as a charity, we always try and put a positive message across and be proactive and show good practice and not be shouty. And obviously these things happen. Absolutely these things happen that are really impacting people's lives that are negative, of course they do. But I think you're right, I think we need to be showing as much positivity, not even positivity, that's not even necessarily the right word, but just good practice, people just going out living their lives, having fun, as much as we possibly can and changing this ridiculous perception that it's not like that. Can I ask you a question? You said as school you tried to look less disabled, you know, kind of like merge into the background. What did you mean by that? Do you mean the way you physically looked or your personality or what?

Kelly Gordon: 13:55

A bit of both. I was an absolute pain in the ass when it came to my image. I feel sorry for my mom for what I used to put her through, because I've got scoliosis of the spine so sometimes I'd change my clothes two or three times to try and avoid showing my back and my back looking weird - in my opinion what I thought at the time weird, obviously now I know it's not weird, but at the time I was so wrapped up in what other people thought of disability I just wanted to present as normally as possible. And I say normal in inverted commas. But yeah, so things like changing my outfit, not wearing tight fitting tops so nobody could see my scoliosis. And also I didn't like the way my body sort of positioned as I was seated, so it would tend to be like looser clothes anyway. And then things like my mobility aids for example, my wheelchair, I kept it as basic as possible. And I did that because I almost thought the smaller and most basic chair I've got, nobody can ask me, oh what does that button do? what does this do? Oh, you've got sick wheels, you should get alloys, all that kind of stuff that comes with being a wheelchair user, I just wanted to avoid it at all costs. So I thought if I stick to this basic one I found, and every time we used to get a new one, I just got a better version of the basic chair and carried on and on and on. I just thought nobody would mention it. But that was just a silly thing in my head, really, because I still got the comments anyway. So I really put myself back by doing that, because having that basic frame of a wheelchair meant that I couldn't have a riser, I couldn't have a tilt. I couldn't have anything that I've got now that is so functional in my life because I was so worried about what other people thought of me.

Jennie Williams: 15:45

It's so interesting having these conversations, because hopefully there'll be people listening to this, and younger people or parents of younger people, that wouldn't even know that that was your thought process and being able to have a conversation or may be thinking exactly the same thing. Because now as we mentioned, at the start, you've got like a very distinctive look, and you're very much about makeup and fashion aren't you. And so it's like you've gone completely the opposite way now with your tattoos and everything like, here I am. Do you feel really empowered by that?

Kelly Gordon: 16:21

Definitely. I think that there was a big change in me when I came into year nine or 10 at school. So I'm trying to think what age that would be for anyone in the US, I think it's about 14,15 maybe. I actually have the internet to thank a lot for my progression and my journey because there was chat rooms then and you're able to talk to anyone all over the world, and just be yourself. And I think by doing that, I really embraced who I was as a person, but obviously, then you had the option to put photos and you got this acceptance from people all over the world. And it made you feel like I'm not ugly, I'm not how people see me as just this disabled person with no life or whatever, I can be what I want to be. So I really used that time to explore relationships with people and explore sexuality and the way that ties into my image and the way I feel about myself. So I really feel like during that time, I just developed this I don't give a shit attitude. And I remember actually going into school with different coloured hair or wearing because, you know, with uniforms, you can only customise it so much, but I was wearing the, I suppose the more alternative type of shoe rather than the more chavvy type of shoe or whatever. And they were like, Oh, my God, Kelly's changed, and it was a negative. And I just ended up thinking, You know what, you're gonna get it either way, so just carry on, and be yourself. And I think I've just dragged that through my whole life now, especially with my career as well, because I've been in the corporate world for a long, long time but I refuse to be corporate and I still want to be who I am. So yeah, it's definitely a really important part of me. And it's how I communicate, it's how I show my personality on meeting people. You said yourself, Jen, about feeling like you have to prove yourself to people, it's a way of doing that before you actually talk to them, showing them a bit of your personality on meeting and I think it's important for me to be able to do that.

Damian Weatherald: 18:50

And that's the one positive I think with social media is you can be yourself, you can find other people. You do get the negative depending on how you look, for example, someone might not agree with how you look. But it is it easier to find people who you can conform to.

Kelly Gordon: 19:07

Yeah, definitely, and it's easy to see as well, especially now, there's so much video, image, whatever out there, it's easier to find people that look like you, or, have the same style or have the same disability, for example. Whereas when I was a kid, I didn't know any other disabled people apart from my brother. But I've said this before, me and my brother didn't really hang out that much because I think for me, especially, there was an internal thing that if me and my brother went out together anywhere, people would assume we were dating. And that used to frustrate me no end and I wasn't equipped to deal with that when I was a kid. So I used to even avoid my own brother and not hang out with anybody that was disabled because I just thought that would affect me negatively and now looking back on it, it's shameful because the amount of amazing disabled friends I've got now, that I could have met a long, long time ago, it, it makes me angry to think that I thought that way. But that's kind of how society pushed me to think because I didn't want to be judged or I didn't want to not fit in, which is ridiculous.

Jennie Williams: 20:23

Do you know what, Kel you're not alone in that? I mean, the amount of people that I know, the amount of people we speak to, exactly the same, you know, and actually, I've noticed over the years running Enhance, more people who joined the team or are a part of the team say exactly that, I didn't really hang around with any other disabled people but I kind of feel like more empowered to now and it's just about hanging around with people that you like. It's not about whether someone's got a disability or not is it, it's about someone, you know, do you make me laugh? Have you got banter? Do we get on well? Are you a nice person? rather than have you got disability or not?! But that is not a unique story. So many people are like that.

Kelly Gordon: 21:03

Yeah, it's sad but hopefully, it's something that will change and people will seek out. People with their disabilities as well, especially younger people, just to get advice or to share experiences because I think if I'd have had that, I would have probably come to the conclusions that I came to maybe a bit earlier.

Damian Weatherald: 21:23

Yeah, I think especially with the amount of hidden disabilities that people have now. It's finding those groups to talk about the issues that you're going through, to make your life easier as you're getting older.

Kelly Gordon: 21:37

Yeah, definitely. Hopefully we are getting somewhere in terms of people like us having these conversations, and putting it out there and getting people thinking, because I think it is really important that people understand that there's nothing wrong with if you have got an invisible disability, and you want to talk about that, then go ahead. But I've just started working with a lot more people, I suppose in the more corporate workspace, there's tonnes of people that are really, really high up in big corporations that have disabilities, and they won't disclose, because they're worried about how they'll then be treated in terms of if they ask for a day off for something completely unrelated, will that then be linked back to their disability? And will they worry too much about their levels of what they can cope with? And they've just said, I'm not comfortable to say, or I haven't been up until we've spoken about certain things. But it's shocking to think that such a strong person high up in a corporation, well that we perceive as strong perhaps from chatting to, they can't even disclose because they're so worried about the impact of that. And I think that's where the education comes in, isn't it?

Jennie Williams: 23:00

Absolutely. I think that's a big part of loneliness. I mean, we run Disability Awareness training through Enhance. And that is the most common thing - afterwards, we finished a training session, someone comes up and discloses, I didn't want to tell anyone, I've got hearing impairment, I didn't want to tell anyone that I've got Crohn's disease, or whatever it may be, because of everything that you just said. And I think it's changing that narrative within society. But just to bring it back before before we end because I know that we could chat for ages. Dating - lots of people, particularly who have personal assistants or carers write into the Love Lounge, and dating's a big thing for them. I feel lonely, I want to meet someone, I don't have to navigate that, because I've got a carer or a PA, and I think you've experienced both haven't you, not having a carer and then having one? Could you maybe share your experiences with that Kel?

Kelly Gordon: 23:56

Yeah, definitely. I think the thing is that, I'm gonna say something really annoying and it's really difficult and it's not easy for everybody to do. But communication is the way that I got around all of that stuff. And I will tell you why, it's because in my head, I kind of assumed that everything would be worse than it actually was. And that's why I talk about communication so much now, because actually, what's the worst that could happen? Like, if you talk to your PA about the fact that you want to find a relationship or have sex or whatever it is, I think they probably nine times out of 10 are going to be very supportive. But if not, and they might not be, but they're not going to shout at you hopefully, there's not going to be an overtly negative reaction but I think sometimes you sit there and you think about all the things that could be said, but when I did it it was great because I actually met my partner in real life first, but we met to make sure that we were both real and that we weren't dangerous people I suppose, just in a public place, but then when it came down to actually having sex and getting together or spending time together, I actually had the conversation with my PA's and they went for a cup of tea together and we set up a little safe word and a little if you've not heard from me in two hours, come back! or something like that, but everybody was clued in, so the PA's were clued in, my partner was clued in, and they knew that if they wanted to be with me, and have sex with me, essentially, these are the sort of parameters of doing that and this is what we've got to negotiate and get around. So I think when it comes to your disability, and how you receive your care, I've always said to try and look at it in an empowering way. And think, well if I want to be independent, these are the tools that I use to be independent. So it's just about organising those tools, I suppose, not to kind of impersonalise people, but essentially, your PA's are there to help you do what you need to do and to be independent. So it's about that kind of communication, and then that planning, to allow you to get into the situations, but also to be safe. Because that's a big thing that happened to me when I was younger, I used to receive care from my parents, so to get away from having to have those awkward conversations, or those kinds of conversations that I didn't think my parents were ready to hear yet, I would go and put myself into really dangerous situations and not tell anyone where I was and rely on people I'd just met for care. And I've really come out of that luckily fine, but I could have not. There's so many stories of people that meet people online that are completely non disabled, and they end up in real trouble. So imagine what could have happened if that had happened to me as a disabled person.

Jennie Williams: 27:16

Yeah, it scares me having two young girls. It scares me what their future is going to be like, and meeting online and all the rest of it. But I met my partner online and I didn't disclose. I never put that I have got a hearing impairment, because I just felt like people didn't really understand what hearing impairment was, people either think deaf or they think hearing, they don't really get the middle ground. Obviously you're a wheelchair user, so it's more difficult to hide, in inverted commas. So disclosing is a big question that we often get in. Did you always disclose on your dating profile?

Kelly Gordon: 27:54

No, you see, this is something that I always end up talking about as well, because I love to hear other people's answers. But with me, when I was younger, I'm talking early, early internet, like, when I was discovering myself, I never disclosed my disability. And that led to issues because I sometimes really fell for these people and then wanted to meet them, and this wasn't the day where you could just quickly go and meet somebody, it was when you had to really plan it out and travelling was difficult to do. It wasn't as easy as everything seems now, so you could have been talking to someone for six months to a year and have not told them about your disability and then it made me feel like I was really keeping a big part of myself back that I should have told them about. So then it's like this massive panic situation of, okay, I need to tell them, will they accept it? Will it be too much for them? And it becomes all about them, rather than you being able to disclose and making it about you to begin with, which is what I later discovered, and now I always disclose.

Jennie Williams: 29:10

What did happen in those situations?

Kelly Gordon: 29:12

Okay, I'm going to give you an exclusive now because I've never spoken about this before. But there is one time that I didn't even disclose about my disability when I met somebody in real life and you're gonna think well hang on, she's

Jennie Williams: 29:23

How long did you do that for? a wheelchair user, how did you do that? But I I met them at my house and we just hung out in my room and I could move around my

Kelly Gordon: 29:34

What, not disclose? room, I could walk to the bathroom, I used to keep my wheelchair downstairs and I never ever disclosed about my

Jennie Williams: 29:40

Yeah date him but not disclose? disability at all, the whole time that we were together! And looking back on that now, even thinking about that situation just fills me with dread and it makes me just shrivel inside because why did I do that? Why as a wheelchair user would I do that? We didn't really get on anyway, me and the person luckily because I don't know what I would have done at the second date!

Kelly Gordon: 30:14

Oh not long. We used to just speak online and then I think we only met once, so it wasn't a long term thing luckily, thankfully!

Jennie Williams: 30:25

Because otherwise you'd only ever be able to meet him in your bedroom and he'd be thinking has she got a thing about her bedroom and not wanting to go out! So that's fascinating, isn't it? So I take it when you met your current partner, then you did disclose?

Kelly Gordon: 30:44

Yeah, so I think from the age of 16 plus, I used to disclose because I just really felt so uncomfortable around having to have those conversations, and kind of come out as a wheelchair user, which sounds really weird, because I didn't like the reactions but some people had great reactions, but then I still felt awkward. So I think if you just start by putting your true self out there, and I just do that in the form of a picture, I don't go on about my disability and explain how it affects me or anything like that - unless we have that conversation, if somebody literally asks me - but I'll put a full length photo of me in my electric wheelchair and then if we were going to meet, before we meet I'd say just making sure that you notice that I use a wheelchair, have you got any questions about that? And then it just felt to me like the disclosure is dealt with. You know, we've spoken about it and that's fine. Now I think communication to me is the way to get around all of that kind of anxiety that I felt in the past around my disability. So I think the most important thing is for me to deal with that, and then just get on being myself and showing what kind of person I am. You know, disability is a huge part of that and I think being able to work in the disability space, it's important, like you say about your Trainers, it really helps you embrace your disability and learn about other people's disabilities as well, so I think that's a massive thing that's helped me with my growth as a person.

Damian Weatherald: 32:26

Yeah, I agree, I think that's how society can change for the better. It is still hard for a lot of people, we get questions to the Love Lounge so often about people who don't disclose their disabilities in a workplace, in relationships, and it's trying to help people do that.

Kelly Gordon: 32:42

Yeah, definitely.

Jennie Williams: 32:45

Well, I think it's so important to be having these conversations and I think this is gonna be really helping a lot of people listening to this. And, we have people all different age ranges and, as I said earlier, not only that but parents of, and it's hard enough being a parent anyway, but to try and navigate and support a teenager who is going through teenage hormones and everything that teenagers go through, and then also they have a disability on top of that, it's hard to have those conversations. You talk about communicating but as we all know, as a teenager, you don't necessarily want to communicate with your parent, do you. And so maybe as a parent, finding relevant groups that could be out there to support your child, and then subtly leave the information around or something, but I think people feel lonely when they don't have anyone to talk to about something. I've been in a situation myself, for example, when I've done IVF, or when I found out I had my autoimmune condition, you can go too far sometimes and immerse yourselves in these groups and actually that's really positive, but then can become negative, because you hear all these terrible stories that are happening to people and you think oh, goodness! So it's having a balance and knowing sometimes when you can take a little bit of a step back and do what you said earlier, Kelly, by culling all negativity and just going I'm only going to put myself in these situations. You've got to go through that journey yourself a little bit, haven't you? And it's a journey of self discovery essentially, isn't it?

Kelly Gordon: 34:26

Yeah, honestly, as hard as things have been in my past, I think, honestly, if I didn't go through that, this sounds so cliche, but I wouldn't be anywhere near as strong as I am now and I wouldn't be capable of... I'm trying to think how old I was, I was probably 18 or 19 in my first big job, and I went and auditioned for The Apprentice and looking back I cringe because I think, how did you have that self belief at that age to put yourself in front of a room of producers at the BBC, and I even fought hard with those producers, when they challenged me. And I think, would you have been able to do stuff like that if I'd only had a relatively conventional life, you know, it's a real thing that I think about quite a lot, because I think honestly it's prepared me for what some might feel as awkward or embarrassing moments, you kind of don't register the same way because you've been in so many weird places as a disabled person and having those weird and uncomfortable emotions that sometimes they just don't register the same, like genuine life emotions, I guess.

Jennie Williams: 35:42

I did not know that about The Apprentice. I'm hearing all these things today. I love it. What a shame you didn't get on that.

Kelly Gordon: 35:51

That's the thing. Like now, I've been offered to go on the show but it's not something that I want to do anymore because I feel like I've gone past that. They should have had me at 19 because I was so much more tenacious and outspoken. And I would have been probably hated. Like, I would have been despised more than Katie Hopkins or someone. So it's probably a good thing that it didn't happen!

Jennie Williams: 36:18

Ha ha Apprentice villain. Yeah I would definitely have watched that. Thank you so much for coming to talk to us today. I really appreciate you taking time out. And I think genuinely you're going to help a lot of people just listening to your story, and giving people confidence and knowing that they're not alone. And for those people listening, you're not alone. We are here to support you. If you need to talk then you can get in touch with us at the Love Lounge and always make sure that you do write in and you do make contact with someone because it can feel lonely, but it doesn't mean you're alone.

Kelly Gordon: 37:03

Definitely. And if anybody wants to reach out to me, I'm always happy to elaborate on any of my weird experiences that I've had, and try and give advice that's different to what I did basically!

Jennie Williams: 37:16

I think we just need an entire podcast just based on all your stories that will be a series, that would be absolutely brilliant. Anything you want to add Damian.

Damian Weatherald: 37:27

I think it's been brilliant. And like you say, it's people knowing they're not alone. Loneliness doesn't mean you're alone either. So it's having somewhere for people to come and talk to, so they could reach out to both of us, or can reach out to Kelly. I think that's where it needs to end.

Jennie Williams: 37:41

Brilliant. Thank you so much Kel. It's lovely to see you and anyone listening, it's because we do it on Zoom. And the reason we do it on Zoom is because I'm hearing aid user so I need to lip read. So we always do these chats on Zoom. And also it's nice to see the people I'm speaking to. So it's lovely to see you Kel and good luck with all your projects. We'll do a separate podcast with all your work stuff as well and we'll catch up with you soon. Thank you again.

Kelly Gordon: 38:07

Bye!

Audio recording: 38:07

Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like any more information about the work we do under the Undressing Disability campaign, then go on to our website at enhancetheuk.org and click on the Undressing Disability tab.