John and Jade Reynolds

Welcome back to our Undressing Disability podcast!

Hosts Jennie and Zoe kick off series 3 chatting to John and Jade Reynolds. 

Jade was diagnosed with acute transverse myelitis of her spinal cord when she was just 12 years old.

In this episode, they chat about how they met, dating, parenting and their hilarious TikTok account.

Follow John and Jade on TikTok @johnejreynolds 

Transcript

JENNIE: Hello and welcome to series three of The Undressing Disability Podcast, where we talk all things sex and disability, with me, one of your hosts, Jenny Williams, and my lovely co host, Zoe Lloyd. We have so many exciting guests on this series and we really hope you enjoy it just as much as we do.

MUSIC INTRO

JENNIE: On today’s episode Zoe and I are joined by John and Jade Reynolds.

Jade was diagnosed with acute transverse myelitis of her spinal cord when she was 12 years old. We talk to the couple about how they met, dating and their brilliant TikTok accounts. We hope you enjoy this chat as much as we did….

JENNIE: Hello and welcome to The Undressing Disability Podcast. And today,  do you know what, I'm very excited and it's going to sound like a made up thing, but we have John and Jade and we follow, we have lots of people following our instagram and our podcast, etc, but also we follow lots of people and genuinely, I love your instagram and your TikToks. I absolutely and John, I saw you first and you really, really made me laugh and I sent it over to Kate who finds us guests, and I was like, can we please chat to these guys? So thank you so much for taking time out and agreeing to come on our podcast.

JADE: Oh, no, thanks for having us.

JOHN: Yeah, thank you. Such a pleasure. A privilege. 

JENNIE: So, first of all, Jade, would you mind starting because we're going to kind of start with your story and your journey, if that's okay, and just telling us a little bit, and as much as you're happy about disclosing and I know you're quite open, but about your disability, because lots of our listeners won't know your story and about how you acquired your disability and if we could take it up to there, that would be great.

JADE: Yeah, that's fine. So I've got a bit of an unusual story when I was twelve on the 13 May 2003, completely out of the blue, I experienced, I guess it was an autoimmune attack, and within seconds I went from being completely healthy and walking to sitting down on a park bench and not being able to get back up again.

Thankfully, my Dad was with me, so he carried me home and then took me to hospital. And what we didn't realise at the time was that my spinal cords had become inflamed and it was rubbing against my vertebrae in my back and that caused the spinal cord injury that I have now to this day.

And so, yeah, it's very rare. They diagnosed me with something called acute transverse myelitis, and at the time, they actually said I had more chance of winning the lottery than getting this. I was oh, great. Thanks. I should have too young be in the lottery then, but, yeah, so it was very rare.

And they said that they couldn't definitively tell me what had happened because it's so rare, they hadn't been able to really look into it too much.

So it was all a bit of a mystery for a while, and it took a while for them to diagnose me. I just was in hospital. I didn't know whether it was going to travel up me. We didn't know anything, really, and it took quite a long time for the damage to show on my spinal cord.

So for a while, they kept checking, I kept having MRIs and they kept going, oh, your spinal cord looks okay. So they were quite pleased about that. And then after about six weeks, I think it showed up then that, oh, okay, no, there has been damage.

I'm technically not a complete paraplegic, so I do have some feeling in my legs, but it's very patchy. They think the damage is between T ten and T seven, and so I get a lot of painful spasms, but I have no movement in my legs at all. So, in that regard, I do feel like I am a complete paraplegic because I have no movement. I can't feel hot and cold, I can't feel pain in my legs, but I can feel some touch.

And like a lot of people with spinal cord injuries, I experience a lot of pins and needles and spasms and things like that. So that's kind of it in a nutshell. 

ZOE: I heard on your podcast that you said about that you injure yourself quite a lot because obviously you don't sense the pain at the time, or you don't ever sense that. I heard that story about you ironing and then the steam burning your legs. Yeah, that sounded so horrific. 

JADE: People don't realise, actually, most of the time, the worst thing about having a spinal cord injury is not the spinal cord injury, it's all the kind of resulting things from that.

So not being able to feel hot and cold or pain, I mean, I get into all sorts of accidents because I just don't have the pain senses there to go, stop doing this, so I just keep doing it. 

JOHN: And you couldn't feel the steam, could you? 

JADE: No, on the steam, yeah, they actually said so I was ironing the trousers that I was going to put on, so I didn't actually have anything on my legs, but they said that was a blessing in disguise, really, because at least when I moved the ironing board,  I could instantly see I hurt myself. But they said if you were wearing something, I would have, your skin would have fused to the material and you would have gone to get your trousers off or whatever, and you would have ripped all your skin off. So, I mean, I'm sorry to be graphic for people, but I just thought, oh, gosh, yeah, actually, that is a bit of a blessing, really, that I didn't do that.

But, yeah, I've broken my leg and not realised it till the next day and my body went into shock. I mean, I've done all sorts of ridiculous things that, if I could feel, I wouldn't have done them. 

ZOE: Yeah, that's so frightening, isn't it? And I think that's maybe like you said, people don't understand that.

They think of oh, you being a wheelchair user and oh, you're paralysed, oh, you can't feel, but they don't realise the other implications that that has. Absolutely. 

JENNIE: I think part of that story is I'm just impressed you were ironing.

JADE: We don't own an iron. 

JENNIE: She’s got children and she irons. I use the hairdryer, I just put a hairdryer down everything. 

JADE: I’m with you on that. We don't own an iron now. It was the perfect excuse to never iron again, really wasn't yeah, to be fair.

ZOE: I wouldn't trust Jennie because when she ironed my top, she put a hole in it and I'm still waiting for that to be paid back.

JENNIE: You need to get over it. Well, just so you know, so Zoe and I work together but we also have known each other since we were five, something like that, a long time ago we were like in our forty’s now. Zoe, I mean, it's quite good for you to share your story really, because it wasn't as young as that but it started happening when you around 19, didn't it? 

ZOE: Yeah. So I've got rheumatoid arthritis and I'm a full time wheelchair user as well. So I was doing a sports degree and I was in my first year, and it rapidly came on, the rheumatoid arthritis, and the pain was horrendous. And then eventually it fused virtually all of my joints. 

So a bit like you, you’ve gone out into the world and you're starting to become independent. I know I was, like, six years ahead of you, but you feel like you're a woman and you've gone to university and then suddenly had to come back and be sort of very babyfied, I guess. Like, I was pretty much in bed for two years. And your parents are doing all your personal care. So I totally understand from that point of view of that huge transition of when you acquire a disability, it can be so much different to people who have been born with it. And I think then the struggle mentally is quite profound then, it's about your identity, isn't it? 

And I'm assuming as a 13 year old you're probably running around everywhere and I was very sporty and dancy and that's how I showed myself and so then suddenly I was, oh, who am I now? I'm this wheelchair user and stuff so it had a massive impact on my confidence.

And again, I was listening to your story and you saying about you went to university and then you were really scared about going, and I was just so in admiration of you, that you went. I think it would be so much easier to go Oh, no, that's a little bit scary, I think I'll stay where I'm safe. 

So I just wanted to speak to you, really about your confidence that was impacted as a 13 year old and then going back to school. How did you feel amongst your peers and then making new friends at university?

JADE: It was really tough the first few years because I think when you're 13, you're just starting to go out on your own with your friends. You're kind of wanting to distance yourself from your family a little bit.

And so to have it happen then was really hard for me because it was like becoming a baby all over again. I had to learn how to even sit up on my own, how to dress myself again, and I couldn't go home because our house wasn't accessible. So in the end, I had to have my bed in the living room, which, as a 13 year old, wasn't really ideal.

I couldn't use the bath or the toilet by myself, so it was obviously like a huge shock to the system. And then going back to school, all of a sudden, it was like you get the initial, you're a novelty because, oh, whoa, you're in a wheelchair. What happened? And there'd been all sorts of crazy rumours that I'd gone home, the school, about how I ended up in a chair. And I'd randomly get people just going, so what did you do? And, you know, when you're not expecting it, you're a bit like, have I just done something? Or they're almost accusing you and then they're like, no, you're in a chair. And I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, so that's what you're referring to.

So I found that quite hard at times and kind of being seen as different and not having anyone else who was a wheelchair user in the school. And also there were just things like in my school there was like a four story block so some of the lessons would be up in the third 4th floor, they would bring them down for me but that almost felt like too much attention on me again because obviously everyone's class has been shifted just for me and things. So I did find it really hard at first. They even tried to get me to go to a special school and I was like, no way, I'm not going to a special school. I'm going back to the school I went to before. I really had this strong desire in me to be seen as normal, even though I knew that people weren't viewing me that way. So I fought to stay at the school that I was at. But, yeah, I found it really hard and I lost a lot of friends actually, looking back.

But I think it was because at that age, you're not mature enough to deal with your friend going through a huge, traumatic, life changing experience. There wasn't that maturity then. Don't get me wrong, I did have friends and I had a handful who were really great and things, but a lot of the, when you're that age, you are quite sociable and you are quite like friendships aren't that deep, are they? Let's be fair. And so I found it hard, kind of all of a sudden, people not making the effort with me, and, oh, I wouldn't be invited places, because that would be an extra effort on them to look after me or take care of me and things. So I did feel a lot of isolation, um, and things. But I found after a few years, I kind of grew more in my own skin a bit more, and I think because everyone does, I think everyone's awkward at 13, aren't they? 

And I think when I got to about 17, a big confidence boost for me was learning to drive. That was a huge thing for me because all of a sudden, with an adapted car, I could go out on my own and then so I could just meet people, places and I didn't have to have my Mum and Dad, like, tagging along with me or and so that was a huge confidence booster and the first kind of normal thing in life where I thought, oh, I've hit a milestone here, and I've learned to drive sooner than a lot of my friends have. That was a big boost for me.

And so it was definitely a process of getting to a point where I was doing my A levels and then, okay, what do you do next? Everyone's going off to uni and me thinking, okay, what am I going to do? Because it'd never really been discussed. I think my parents, they had to come to terms with my disability, and I think they very much more my Dad than my Mum, but had the view of, oh, you'll probably live with us forever now.

It was never said, but, you know, that vibe, like, you're always welcome to stay here. It was almost like, oh, you'd be happy if I just lived here forever with you, almost. I didn't want to live with them forever, and actually, I still had all my life ahead of me.

So, yeah, it was a long journey to get to the point where I felt confident enough, but I found that it was baby steps and it was like just pushing yourself a little bit out of your comfort zone and realising that it wasn't a disaster. That, oh, going out on my own for the first time was quite scary because I had been so heavily like, I never went anywhere on my own, my Mum was always with me or my friends, or whatever, so just even little things like that where you go, I did that and it was fine, nothing awful happened.

I think just small steps like that just it grows your confidence and then before you know it, you're like, oh, I'm doing a lot more than I ever thought I could, kind of thing. 

ZOE: Yeah, absolutely. I totally identify with you about the car as well. I was driving prior to becoming ill, but then I didn't drive for, like, five years, and then my occupational therapists were like, yeah, you can drive. And again, like you say, when you're looking at your future, you think, I don't know what I can do, because I've never been in this situation before. I don't know what help there is. So probably similar to you kind of thought, God, am I going to live at home all the time?

And then people say, oh, you can do she can have a carer, blah, blah, blah. But the driving absolutely for me, that's when I say that I'm as equal as everyone else, because if I point that steering wheel in that direction, I'm going over there. I haven't got to wait for someone else to push my wheelchair.

And also, just from a perspective point of view of the way people look at you, I'm normal behind that steering wheel. You can't see my wheelchair. So we're judged equally. And for me, that's a massive freedom as well. So it's really interesting that you said that, too.

JEN: Do you know what another thing that really made me think, is that recently we went out and just recently Zoe’s got the adaptation that goes in front of her manual wheelchair, so it turns it into a scooter. So I live in Brighton, and Zoe came down in the summer, and we went to go and watch Fat Boy Slim, and we had really good night. And then you just went off on your own for a bit, and I remember you coming back and going, oh, my goodness, this is the first time in years, wasn’t it, that you have gone somewhere on your own without any assistance. And for me, that was a really big thing, because I'm around you all the time and I have completely different disability, which allows me to be independent and go out. But actually, even for me, that was a real moment of going, oh, my goodness yes you are always with someone. 

ZOE: Yeah. You never really have that time on your own and stuff and just be free and go, I'm going to go where I want to go and not have to have permission and everything. Yeah. Definitely can change your life a lot, can't it? These either adaptations or just driving.

So with regards to confidence and stuff, and obviously we are going to bring you in, John, I know you've sat there, please, please let me in. We want your humour. We love your humour. And obviously you guys met at uni, I think that's right. But, Jade, I just wanted to know, did you date before university? 

JADE: No, not at all. Not at all. I don't know whether it was a mixture of maybe me not being confident enough, which probably it was. I had a lot also when I was at school, so even though I became paralysed when I was, well, two weeks for my 13th birthday, because my paralysis wasn't equal, I got scoliosis.

So from the ages of 13 to 17, when I finally had the surgery to correct my spine, I was in a lot of chronic pain. I mean, for me, it was like boys weren't really on the radar because I was just struggling to get through every single day. I was basically managing the basics of even going to school and things, but my scoliosis was so bad at one point that my ribs and my hips were touching and my lungs were getting crushed. I mean, it was serious. So I think, I had too much other stuff to think about to be going, oh, boys, do you know what I mean? But I think I had that surgery when I was 17 and all of a sudden I wasn't in pain all the time and I wasn't struggling with this huge health issue, so I think that gave me a big boost.

And then, so I'd say, I didn't really start properly dating till I was at uni, really. There was maybe one or two boys when I was doing A levels, but it was very casual and it was very like, just very childish. When you look back, I wouldn't even call it a relationship. Um. But yeah, when I went to uni, I think it was because maybe I was out there on my own. I was my own person for the first time ever. I wasn't just attached to my family. I think a lot of people find this when they go to uni, but I think that's when I really kind of, my confidence stepped up and because I was achieving more, I was like, oh, I am living away from home and things. I think I did have more of a confidence and boys approached me more then. I think that boys were more confident. I think at school, boys aren't that confident talking to girls, really as well.

Whereas I feel like you get to uni and all of a sudden you're all a little bit more grown up that you can kind of, you know, you're happier to approach kind of thing. So, no, I did date a bit in uni. Never really seriously before, John.

I went on maybe four or five dates with one person. Then I was like, nah, they're not doing it for me. So never long term, really. I was quite picky, really, 

JENNIE: John’s like, yep, saying all the right things here. 

JOHN:Yes, you were. 

JADE: I was quite picky. And then I gave up.

I associate uni, really, with the start of me really like having any kind of dating life, I'd say.  

JENNIE: Thing is, I think it's quite a thing as well, because if you go from normally kind of looking at boys and starting to get crushes and things like that can start quite early on, let's face it, and more and more so.

And that's where you start to not necessarily action those things, but you start writing the little love letters and you start thinking about it and talking with your friends about it, and you go from like, er boys are gross, they smell, to like, oh, really liking and vice versa. 

And for a lot of people, it's quite difficult because you kind of miss out on that really important stage because, as you and Zoe both said, you kind of become very infantilised, and then almost being thrown into going, oh, OK, I do find guys attractive or girls attractive. And a lot of people say you have to go through this kind of grieving process of what you've kind of lost and then growing into your own skin and then seeing yourself and actually understanding that people find you attractive.

Because for a long time, a lot of people think, well, nobody else would find me attractive. Did you feel like that? Did you feel like you were suddenly thrown into it or was it quite a natural process for you?

JADE: I think there are a few things like I think when I was younger, I think I almost assumed when I was when it first happened to me, for the first few years, I didn't really think I was probably ever going to have a romantic relationship, in all honesty, because I didn't see anyone else disabled or like severely disabled who had a relationship. I never saw it on TV. It wasn't like now where you've got social media, where I follow loads of disabled influencers and it’s great. It's like, wow, there's so many people who are disabled who are living normal lives and it's really inspiring and it normalises, it whereas before social media, we're talking I was 17 in 2007, so that was just as social media was coming in. You didn't have any examples, so I almost was a bit like, oh, well, you don't often see people picking people with disabilities. Do you know what I mean? So I think I did have a little bit of a I might just be celibate for the rest of my life and just never go out with anyone.

It did cross my mind.

I think my confidence increased, like I said when I had physical, had my back surgery and was no longer in chronic pain anymore, but then learning to drive and when I started to do more normal things and I didn't over focus on it, I remember just thinking, I just want to have fun with my friends.

I want to go to uni. I want to try and live life as much as I can and experience as much as I can. I wasn't thinking, I want to find someone that wasn't really, I'm looking for a boyfriend. I never really thought that. But what I found was because I was comfortable in my own skin, people were approaching me more.

It was like, oh, okay. I was just acting normal in the pub with my friends and it was like, oh, okay, this guy's chatting to me now and, oh, okay, all my friends are going, oh, I think he likes you. And I'm like, oh, okay. And it was because I'd normalised it.

It was like, oh, she's just normal. It was like all of a sudden, they weren't seeing the wheelchair, they were just, oh, that's just Jade. And I was very known in my uni as I was on the student committee and I was entertainment secretary. So I ran all the social events. I wasn't the shy disabled girl in the corner. I was very much oh, that's Jade. Everyone knew me and I was popular. I felt popular. I knew a lot of people. And so I think a lot of the time we can get so over focused on something that actually it almost repels it in a way. Whereas I think it just be you and just you know what I mean? Just be you. Just show people who you are and they will see you.

I think sometimes it can be so hard when you've got a disability to kind of become your disability, a little bit because it's such a big part of your life. But I think there's so much more to people than their disability. Yes, it's an aspect, but you still have a personality, you still have things that are totally separate from your disability. And so I think it's just when people can see that, they connect with you, and I think that makes you attractive to people.

JENNIE: It's so interesting you know because people do want to hear this. And there are going to be people that are going through what you and Zoe have both been through, right now and need to hear this. So you were friends first, were you, before you started kind of dating? 

JOHN: Yeah, I think I thought we were more friends than Jade thought we were

JADE: I thought he was a bit annoying. 

JOHN: I said, when I've recollected this before, I've been like, oh, no, we were never close. We had shared mutual friends that were close with each of us. I think we'd hung out a handful of times and I thought, oh, no, she's got a good laugh. I thought she was a bit of an ice queen.

I thought she was quite hard to, very confident, but I think we were both trying to work each other out. I think both of us have quite a big personality and I think you've been used to, in the past, people using humour to take the mick or kind of one up yourself, whereas I think I probably used it to be a bit more inclusive than that.

But when she felt like I was a big personality, I think she wanted to shoot me down a bit and I was like, oh, I thought I was bringing people into a situation. And so I think there was a little bit of, like, there was definitely some banter between us and things.

I remember you taking the mickey of my height because I'm five foot seven, so I remember her being like, oh, you're quite short. And I remember riskily saying, well, I'm taller than you, and thankfully she laughed. And so I remember a few moments like that just in the corridors at uni and things, but I think I had a really high view of you, but just didn't know you super well. And then we started talking a little bit just online once I'd left, so I was the year above Jade anyway, so we only had two years at uni together and, yeah, it was a really embarrassing moment where we really started chatting to each other, a bit flirty and DMs and things. And then it was at the time where Facebook's algorithm would show mutual followers exactly what you'd liked, it doesn't really do it now, but I went through and liked probably about 20 of Jade's photos, but then she had her friends being like, why is John Reynolds liking every single photo you've ever posted?

And I was like oh crap. But she was like, oh, no, we are chatting and things. And then our cover was blown a bit. That was kind of sort of early days, wasn't it? But I would say friends first. I think we did get on well. Our paths didn't cross being in different years and probably started different friendship circles, but it wasn't a massive uni, so we still hung a little bit and things and got on and yeah, then I think I just I remember asking you, should we do, it was Skype, wasn't it, like, at the time? And you were like, I remember you saying to friends, I feel like it's going to be really awkward. And I was like, I knew it wouldn't be because I know that I'm not awkward and it'll be fine.

But you weren't too sure.

JADE: But Skype is awkward. That it was awkward in general, Skype, because there'd be loads of pauses and that kind of thing.

JOHN: And it was before lockdown days where we were used to just talking to each other on screens and it was probably before you would FaceTime regularly as well. But I was like, I just don't want to give you a call because that feels weirder and things. It's like, nice to actually see her. I think we chatted for like, two or 3 hours or something. And it was really long, and you were like, oh, okay, this is all right. And then, yeah. Then took on a date to Cafe Rouge before it got shut down. Rest in peace. And it was really nice.

JADE: I drove. We went in my car, but obviously with the wheelchair, John had never put it down before, put it in the boot and things. So I was just very used to directing people. I remember you saying to me a while after, I was really pleased. Like, you were just like, yeah, you do this, this, and this, and then we can go, kind of thing.

JOHN: Yeah, and if you just hold it for me. And it was, like, really concise, but at the same and not too complex and things, but also really normal. You weren't like, okay to be careful. If you'd been really edgy, I'd have picked up on those nerves and been like, okay.

Whereas I felt like it was just totally normal. 

JADE: It’s funny, though, because I think particularly if you have a wheelchair, when you are dating someone, it is almost like you're interviewing them as well as, how good are they at doing the wheelchair? How good are they? Do I feel safe when they push me? Do they know what to do with a kid? Funny. You're trying to act, you’re trying to be relaxed. But in my mind, I was like, okay, has he noticed that? Has he noticed there's, like, a kid coming up? Okay, should I say something to him? But not making it too much about wanting it to be, like, relaxed, banter also, yeah, watch that kid, that kind of thing. So it is a little bit interesting, really, looking back.

JOHN: And I think dating a real cheese. Sorry. I think I was as well. Like, I think we were talking as we were walking to the restaurant, and you're probably thinking, okay, act natural, but make sure he's aware of the potholes coming up in the road.

But I was also thinking, okay, make sure it seems like you're listening, but do not tip her out of her chair. You can't tip her out of chair before you've even got in the restaurant. Otherwise you are not getting a second date. So you are aware of those certain things. But now this piece of case, I found it anyway.

ZOE: I think, yeah, the pressure for the guy on the date in that situation is huge, isn't it? Because you are being judged, like, what if you mess up the wheelchair? Or you can't put it together or, like you say, chuck her out, sweep her up from the floor.

JENNIE: Didn’t you go to the cinema or something and you had to carry Jade?

JOHN: One of our really early dates.Yeah, we got to a cinema in Bromley.

JADE: We checked, it was accessible, and it said it had lift. 

JOHN: But the second we got there, there were like six steps, and now I would probably just bump Jade up them. I'd just tip her back and use my knee on the bar in the middle of her chair and I'd just push her up one at a time.

So if it was like four or five steps, sometimes I had like they often have if there's a ramp on, I'll use that, but sometimes they have like a kind of mini stairlift. But often it takes about 45 minutes for anyone to find the key and things like that.

And you're like, I'll just bump her in. But at that point, it was still too early on, it’s like 1st, 2nd, 3rd date, something like that. And yeah, I just said to the guy, sorry, I'm here with a lady who’s in a wheelchair. We're going to need to use the lift.

And he just looked at me, like really blank, like teenage cinema assistant. It was like, you need a key? And I was like, yes. I just remember saying yes. She doesn't come with one. Can you go and have a look? And see if you can locate it. It was like, I'll be back in a minute.

And so he went and he was gone for about 20 minutes and we were probably going to miss the film, but eventually he found it. So we managed to got the first sort of six steps in the cinema. Then it was A Great Gatsby, so I don't know what year that was, 2013. And we paid for our tickets and got our drinks and stuff, and then I think there was a lift, it was out of action and they didn't tell us that it was, like, the person selling us tickets. Oh, yeah, it's screen five. And I was like, okay, cool. And then they looked at Jade and they were like, oh. And I was like, what?

And they went, well, it's upstairs and our lift isn't working, I think. Or maybe they might not have even had one. I can't remember now. But basically there's a big issue. 

JADE: No one had told us. So we'd purchased the tickets and everything and no one had mentioned.

JOHN: So I had to carry her up about 30 steps.

It was one of those where you really lie and things, but also carrying anybody up that I was, like, determined that I didn't want her to feel heavy, like and stuff. But equally, I also didn't want her to feel like I was weak, because she was quite confident. She was like, I know I'm not heavy, so if you're struggling, get down the gym son.

But by the time I got, obviously you walk up the steps and then there's, like, corridor, which number and things, and people are really nice, but obviously out of context, because then we left her chair downstairs because I couldn't obviously carry her in her chair. So out of context it just looked like I was walking in, like, some night shining armour and everyone looked like I could see people looking at me, like, either the girls being like, oh, this is so cute, or the guys, who's this moron?

And things, like, showing us up and things. But we left your chair downstairs, didn't we? So they said that they would put it in one of the stockrooms rather than me have to go back down and get it again. So then I had to carry her out again and we waited for everyone else to leave. And then there were these three old ladies who were right at the back and I thought, they're probably not going to be any hassle. I didn't want to pick her up amidst the hustle and bustle of everyone else and things and end up getting knocked down the stairs myself.

And then we've got two wheelchair users, so I was like, oh, we'll wait for everyone else to leave the cinema. And the three old ladies, I think they were very giggly, weren't they? It was a girls night out for that and The Great Gatsby books like, old, isn't it? So I think they'd probably read it maybe in their youth or something, and then they'd watch in the film and it was all, like, reminiscent. I imagine them being reminiscent of their teenage years. They were all three of them, all really giggly at the back, like, really sweet, and one of them just shouted, it didn't make any sense. But as I was carrying Jade down the stairs, one of them just went, ‘The Great Gatsby’ really romantic. And I was like, doesn’t really makes sense in the context of the film, but thank you. But they were so funny. 

So we have definitely had moments where I think, from my perspective, dating Jade, I've been surprised how little of the world in the UK is set up for disabled people to thrive, particularly if they don't have somebody as you said, Zoe, particularly if they don't have someone with them all the time or a lot of the time. It's possible there are some, like there's shopping centres or whatever that are all very flat and things where you can get into all the shops, but I follow a few disabled influencers as well. And I saw somebody, I can't even remember who it was, but saying the other day, like just videoing themselves outside a shop with a step, and they were like they @‘d the company in the end. And they were like, you're not going to get my business all the time. You've got a step here. I would love to come in and spend I've got Christmas money. I'd love to come in and spend money in your shop. You're missing out. And the disabled industry, or sorry, disabled people, is a huge industry. There are lots of people with accessible needs that cannot get in your shop. 

So even if you don't have compassion for us, even if you just want to make money, you're missing out in that way as well. I went to Zara one time and just with my little girl, I think Elijah was in school, our six year old boy.

I went, Arily was newborn and I went in just for me, just to try some clothes and I needed to use the bigger change room because she was newborn, it was just me and her. And they showed me to one of the single changing rooms and I was like, I can't use this, I can't leave her in her pram outside the changing rooms. I said, can I not use that one? Pointing at the one with the massive long curtain? And they said, oh, no, that's not working at the moment.

And I was like, what do you mean, knowing it's only a curtain? What cannot be working about a changing room? And basically, when I pushed further, it was just full of stock and I said, well, I'm not leaving until I want to try these clothes on. That's illegal. I didn't actually know if it was or not, but I assume it was.

And if it isn't, it should be. And so I said, that's actually illegal, what you're doing? I can wait. And so they took all the stock out and I went in with my daughter. And I think I mostly did that because obviously, being married to Jade, I was like, that is just outrageous, it's so unfair.

And I think seeing things like that have definitely made me we all care more about the things that affect us. And now, obviously this affects me too, because I love Jade and it's part of my life as well, so it's not just altruism or empathy or whatever some of it is, knowing what it's like a bit more. But I think I was surprised how much you could do in one hand and then I was also surprised how even just a curb is a game ender for you and stuff if you don't have someone to help. And so I think it's been fascinating for me coming into a world of disability and things and seeing how the world is and obviously I still don't know what it's like firsthand.

There's still so many things that I don't have to struggle with, but just seeing, I think, what that's like a little bit has been quite opening for me personally as well.

JENNIE: You can know that at any point, I’ve also got autoimmune condition that came out of nowhere, seemingly, and how quickly things can affect us when we have no idea. And I think that, with Enhance, one of the things we do as we run as a charity is teach people about around disability awareness because there's no point thinking, really empowering disabled people to go out and go on dates and do all these things. Because then you turn up to go on a date and you can't flip and get in and you're like, well, they have to go hand in hand. And actually, we always say, even if you, as a non disabled person, don't really care about disabled people, and quite selfish think about your future self because our bodies are changing and things are going to happen at any point to any of us.

And I know this is like, you guys live this now, you've kind of fallen in love and you're together, but there's going to be lots of people listening, like we said, Jade, particularly, who have just gone through this journey are thinking, no, I'm never going to be able to be with anybody, or the only person that is going to want to be with me will be another disabled person. Which is fine, if that's right for you and you fall in love with somebody, but obviously it is a thing. So how did you feel, John, like, what kind of barriers did you come across? Were family, were friends concerned for you,  saying oh, you know, what you're going to think about your future and family etc?

JOHN: So my concerns were, I think I got to the stage even when we were just chatting on Facebook and things, of thinking like, and it's probably shallow, but it's probably just where I was at at that time in my own journey, I guess, was like, if she wasn't in a wheelchair, would I ask her out?

And I was like, 100%. And so I then thought, well, I don't want a wheelchair to get in the way of something before I know how hard it will be and things. And I think it's not about guilting people, because I do think there are some people, I think probably for all of us, whether we're disabled or not, a healthy relationship isn't charity and it has to be two way and it has to be mutual and things. You can't go, oh, I feel sorry for somebody, so I'm going to date them whether they're disabled or not, you can't be like, oh, they've never been on a date before, so I'll go out with them. Well, you shouldn't do that and things like, you should only go out with someone if you're interested in that, otherwise you're setting them up for a fall or leading them along. And so I just thought, like, if she wasn't in a wheelchair, I would ask her out, but I've got no knowledge.

It wasn't a massive issue for me anyway, to be honest. But I was also like, I'm definitely not going to let something I have no knowledge about at the moment at least stop me from asking somebody out who I actually really like and things. And if the wheelchair became something, or if Jade's disability became something where I was like, actually, I don't think I can do this, then the best thing for both of us is for me to be like, I'm really sorry this isn't working.

And let's be honest, I wasn't going into it thinking, she might definitely say yes to me. Do you know what I mean? I've got tonnes of stuff. I might be like, don't worry, I can do this. And she's like, yeah, I can't. You're an idiot. 

And so I think it was more just like, to be honest, I answered it like I did any other relationship I've been in, to be honest. Let's see how hard this will be. And I've dated women with much higher maintenance, with much more needs and much more expectations on me than I have Jade. And they were ablebodied.

Every relationship is so different and things. And I think for me, it just wasn't an issue. We both liked movies, we both liked just going to and having a chat in a restaurant or cafe or weren't there weren't loads of all the physical and active things like football that I did and stuff.

JADE: You’re lazy anyway. 

JOHN: Yeah, exactly. Most of the time I just don't do anything anyway. I probably sit down as much as Jade does, but I think some of it as well was just the fact that any of the physical stuff I did, I never did with a partner anyway.

I always just went for a kick around with the lads and stuff.

There are things that I do as a husband that probably many husbands don't need to do and things, because I've just got to be a little bit more aware, even, or communicative or we've got a plan in advance and stuff because of if we go out or whatever, but it hasn't changed my life. There aren't things that I used to love doing that I can no longer do now I'm married to Jade and things, to be honest, the kids are most likely to prevent that stuff than Jade is and things. But, yeah, that's how I entered it, really. And when I gave it a try, I guess, like any relationship and things, I was like, this is great, this is better than my other relationships, to be honest. 

JADE: And I think you were very much like, I'll follow your lead. You knew I was very open, you knew you could ask me questions and I wouldn't be offended. So I think it was like, we're both quite good communicators and so it was very natural as the relationship developed. Any questions you did have, we kind of discussed them, really, didn't we? 

JOHN: I think also it was, Jade touched on it earlier, but it was her confidence around who she is and the fact that she's having working legs or not doesn't change your identity of who you are deep down in your core, like who your personality is or what your character is.

It might shape that and it might adjust that and you might grow in different ways because of it. But I think because you were so confident within it, it was very easy. My mum always says and things, she's like, it's like you don't even see the wheelchair. She always says that, bless her. She says it all the time. She absolutely loves Jade and things, but she says she's like, you wouldn't even know and things. And I'm like of course she is.

I think that you asked about friends and family as well. My family rule, it literally didn't really come up. I mentioned that I was dating somebody, and then I think I did say very quickly, like, because I was aware your mind doesn't go straight there.You don't think, oh, I wonder if she might be in a wheelchair, like and things.

I did say, like and she's a wheelchair user, but we're getting on really well, it's early days, etc, but I think I knew that you were confident. So much of it was because my personal opinion around dating is and I'm a youth worker as well, so I give advice to young people and things, and when they ask me, when is too early to date?

Or all those kind of things about when you're ready to date, I don't think so much it's an age or there's a number for it. I think it's about being healthy yourself, so that you're bringing I think you should enter into a relationship for what you can give, not just what you can get.

And I've made that mistake in the past of entering it in because I want to, like, they look good on your arm or they give me a boost or they're really funny, so if they like me, maybe I am that. And I think actually, as I've got older, I think you enter into it for what you can give, not what you can get.

Because I think love is about sacrificing selflessness and not selfishness. And I think I was aware that, firstly, I was in a good place where I thought I had a lot to give Jade, but secondly, she seemed in a good place and wasn't like, will somebody love me? She wasn't at all pathetic or needy or whatever.

She was confident. And so when we get asked on TikTok, even sometimes by some of our followers, who are also disabled and they'll be like, oh, you guys give me hope that one day I might have a relationship and things.

And sometimes they've said, like, John, what advice would you give as someone who's chosen to date somebody and then marry someone in a wheelchair? What advice would you give to me as a wheelchair user? And I'm always, oh, gosh, it feels like so much pressure because I can only really talk about Jade.

But one thing I can say is we all have been victims at some point in life of whatever that is, whether we've gone through something like an autoimmune condition that's totally changed the game for us, or whether it's been a bereavement or a loss. So there are all times when we are a victim. But what I loved about you is, I think there's and grief takes time and all those kind of things, but you can't stay in that place forever when it's raw, of course, you're mourning and grieving are coming to terms with it, but I think what I loved about you and I only actually met you, I can't believe it was only about, what, eight or nine years? Eight years after you became disabled? 

JADE: Yes, seven years. 

JOHN: Seven years, which blows my mind, because you're already incredibly in a good place and things in my mind, it was like 10/15 years after and things, but it wasn't but I think you got to that place of, like, you weren't a victim.

And, of course, it was still sometimes hard and still sometimes emotional and still sometimes you had days where you were like, this is so frustrating. But you didn't play the victim, and you didn't play up to that or live in that place of victimhood. And I think that's really attractive to people, to all people, whether you're able or not and things like, yeah, I think that was what really attracted me to her. 

I did have one friend who said to me, be really careful dating somebody in a wheelchair, because you can't break up with someone in a wheelchair. And I was like, why? I said, okay, you should never use somebody anyway. But I said, they weren't meaning it offensively, and they were a really good friend of both mine and Jade’s.

JADE: Like, you breaking up with me is the worst thing to happen to me up until this point in my life.

JENNIE: That’s a very good point. 

JOHN: I said, like, yeah, well, I'm not going to use somebody. I'm not going to string them along or whatever and stuff, but I wouldn't do that anyway. But I said, if I broke up with them, it wouldn't be because of that. It could be because of any reason, but other than that, we didn't get anyone be like oh, be careful. I think most people who knew us were like, oh, yeah, I think your personality was quite similar. I think you get on.

JADE: I had quite a lot of guy friends, and it was interesting the conversations we'd have, and a lot of them hadn't ever really known anyone before who was disabled. And all of them were just like, oh, definitely. I know you're going to get married.I know you're going to find someone. You've got so much to give. I always remember one guy as well, he didn't mean it, it sounds really inappropriate, but he didn't mean it in an inappropriate way because he's quite a sweet guy, really, but he went Jade. Do you know what? Since meeting you, I've actually thought about disabled sex for the first time.

Now, what he meant was, you're so normal. Actually, I've never thought before that disabled people even had sex, of course. Do you know what I mean? For him, it was like, oh, yeah, you'll be in a relationship and that'll be part of it. But he'd never because obviously it's never in the media, it's never on our TV screens.

So for him, it was like, in his way of saying it, a 20 year old boy said that kind of thing, made me laugh at the time, I knew what he meant. 

ZOE: I think that's such a valid point, and I think that's why disabled people do find it difficult to meet people, because people are thinking, oh, you don't have sex, or you're I'm not going to approach you.You don't want it? Maybe you can't have it and stuff. And then you're, like, sat there going, hello.

I remember being with somebody. And then he was like he went, wow. I'm going to look at disabled people in a different way now. I never knew a girl in a wheelchair would like it. And I was like I was like, well, at least I've done my service. Thank you. Someone else will get a joy from that. He's like, okay. But that is people's perception, unfortunately. And I live near a spinal hospital, so I know a few guys that are spinally injured, and a lot of them have got with either their nurses or their physios, and they're married that way. And then I was like, oh, well, I'm the girl in the wheelchair, and I find it really difficult for men to find that more attractive.

I know I might be making generalised statement here, but I think women will look at a guy in a wheelchair maybe and be like, oh, cool, yeah, that's fine with me and I get on with him. And you have maybe more of an instinct to care anyway. Like John, as you indicated, men might want a trophy on their arm, particularly in their twenty’s and so a girl in your chair is not really going to make up to that sort of idealised image.

And so definitely with maturity, as I've got older, I've made so many more connections because men are like, it's really not about that, it's because I like you and it's not about like, oh, God, I've got a girl in a wheelchair. And so I do think, yeah, maturity and confidence is such a huge part and I think listeners to this podcast that are maybe sat there going, I'm never going to meet anyone. I've been in that situation, I've got friends that have been in that situation nation, and people say it will happen. When you think it's not going to happen, you don't believe that and you think, yeah, it's happened for you, but not for me. But until you become kind of confident in who you are, that is when then the wheelchair loses its power, isn't it, really? 

Like you said, your mum goes, oh, I don't even see you in a wheelchair. And I get loads of comments like that and you know that it is quite a clunky phrase, but you know, it's meant really well. That is not what you are identified by. And I think once you can present yourself in that way and not have the chip on your shoulder or the lack of confidence, then people are attracted to you. And, yeah, it does happen, but I also know it's bloody horrible when you are sat in the room on your own thinking it's never going to happen.

JENNIE: We use a phrase commonly with Enhance and all our team having disability is a really good tosser filter, it filters them out pretty damn quickly.

I think one of the we run something called the Love Lounge, which is a free service for people to write in with their problems. And now we do. We started this week and we run something called Love Lounge Surgeries. Again, they're free, people can call in and then have an hour with Zoe, myself or other practitioners to come in and talk to. And it's really sometimes for people just to be seen for the first time and heard, and especially if people a lot of the time acquired their disability, just saying I just want to speak about this and be seen as a sexual being, not as a medical model about getting my wheelchair right or eating right or how many times I've gone for a wee. Actually and about other things, about having sexual function and all the rest of it.

And it is so important that people are seen like that and given that opportunity if they want to. And being in a relationship isn't a be all or end all. It isn't. It's about choice. And if somebody wants a choice to be seen and go out and date and all the rest of it, then that's what's so important.

We haven't got much longer left, because I know we've been keeping your time, but there's a question that Zoe brought up and I thought, I've never even thought about that when we were chatting before, Zoe about the wedding. Do you want to ask? Jade? 

ZOE: Yeah. So I've always thought, like, if you're in a wheelchair and then you're getting married and I've seen it again on social media, and they go, oh, this is my first dance, and this is how I came down the aisle.

For me, that's still makes me cringe a little bit because I'm like, everyone's going to be looking at me and going, oh, bless her. Look how they did their first dance. So I sort of think I think I might avoid that or the other side of me, I’m a bit Jekyll and Hyde, I'd be like, yeah, let's make this amazing and let's do a show and really go for it. And depending on the guy's personality, so someone like John, I can see, would totally encourage you and you'd be like, yeah.

So basically I wanted to know how you felt on your wedding day and doing the traditional things, like you're walking down the aisle and the first dance, for example. So what did you guys do? 

JADE: It’s interesting. On our wedding day, I just felt really confident. Like, I knew I looked really good and I knew everyone in that room, I wasn't nervous at all, I knew everyone waiting for me to arrive was really happy for me, really excited for me.

It just felt like a big party, like a big celebration, and it was like I didn't feel like anyone there felt sorry for me. I think everyone was like, just saw me normally and was like, they would any of their friends getting married? Like, yeah, come on, kind of thing.

But I did find actually planning a wedding harder. The venue was fine, it was a modern building and things, but one thing I did find it's important to speak about is going wedding dress shopping. And the attitudes I encountered were not always very good. So I remember I went to one wedding dress shop and I said, obviously I don't want a big poofy dress because it'll get caught in the wheels. Like, I have to have some kind of I want to be beautiful, but I've got to also have that practical side in mind as well. And I remember where one shop, they were just really put out by this and they said, oh, maybe you should just wear a bridesmaid's dress then.

It’s my wedding day. No, I don't want to wear a bridesmaid dress.

There's loads of wedding dresses that are slim, fitting, like loads. Why would you say that kind of thing? So that was difficult at times, where I almost felt like I had to be a bit like, no, I want a wedding dress, it's my wedding.

So that bit I found a bit annoying. But then we found a really good wedding dress shop and they were brilliant. But the actual wedding day…

JOHN: I think one of the nice things, and obviously not everyone has a Dad, or not everyone wants necessarily their Dad to give them away and things, but I think it was quite nice for you. It's quite powerful for me and quite emotional. 

JADE: Obviously, my Dad wheeled me down…

JOHN: Because you're going down usually with somebody who gives you away anyway, it didn't feel weird that Jade was being pushed, basically, because she would have been linked arms if she could walk anyway and stuff. So I think that felt quite normal. We didn't end up, I just sang for you didn’t I, instead of doing a wedding dance. 

JADE: Kind of a bit like what you'd said, I thought it might be a bit cringe or a bit like I know some people who are in wheelchairs actually still quite good dancers and fair play to them, I think if you're good at it and you enjoy it, go for it. Like, people will love it. But for me, I was a bit like, oh, I think I would feel a bit self conscious because if you're going to do something, I want to do it well, kind of thing. And I knew I just wouldn't be able to do, you know what I mean?

So we kind of had a chat about, okay, well, what are we going to do then? And things and then you're like a decent singer and you quite enjoy it, don't you, performing. So you ended up serenading me, which people loved, but and particularly the song as well, people loved, didn't they? Because it was the Ed Sheeran song, where it starts off when your legs don't work like they used to. So people know, as you can imagine, they love that. So for us, I think, with anyone, you tailor the wedding to what you want it to be. Like, these days, weddings aren't just like one size fits all. People are so different and people want to show their own personalities on their wedding day. And so if something's hard for you to do, you don't have to do it, do something else you can do. But I think before we are engaged and before I was in a really secure relationship, I remember thinking about, oh, I thought I'd never get married, and then I thought, oh, no, if I did, it would be just like, oh, look at her, poor thing kind of thing.

But it's not like that. I think when you're in a bad place or like, you get into the kind of downward spiral of self pity and people are just going to be like, oh, poor her, she looks good, but she would look better if she wasn't in a chair.

It's just not reality. 

JOHN: People who know, you know who you are and know that's part of your life and things, and so I think, like, what else are they going to be expecting? 

JADE: It’s just not a thing for anyone. Everyone there was close to us and the wheelchair is not a thing for them at all.

ZOE: Awesome. That's good to hear. And I think you're right, when you're not in that relationship, it's all your imaginations are far worse than actually a reality would ever be. And every hurdle that you overcome, be it the first time you go into London or use the Tube or everything, is scary before you do it, and then you take the step, like you said earlier, baby steps, and it all just grows, doesn’t it?

Yeah, definitely.

JENNIE: I think know what you said, John, that lots of people are kind of looking to you guys to kind of give all the answers, and you're speaking for all non disabled partners that are with a disabled person. And Jade, you're speaking…, and I suppose the reason that happens is because, as you said before social media, there's no real representation on mainstream telly still.

And that's the one thing that people always say to us, what can change? And we say, representation needs to change, the more we kind of inverted commas normalised, like, you both have used the word normal a few times, and it's almost like, seen as a dirty word, but it's about normalising, disability. That's what we want to get to. So disability becomes normal. And not saying things like, oh, I just don't even see the wheelchair actually going well, it doesn't matter.

And one of the big things that people write into us and say is, should I disclose my disability when I'm dating? That's one of the biggest questions and there's no right and wrong answer for that. It's a very personal, individual thing, isn't it? 

But I think that people like you guys, because you bring sense of humour to it, and I know it sounds oh, you're so funny, you make disability funny. But because within disabled community or whether you got disabled friends you are always bantering off each other because you got to and you've got to have a laugh with it. Because otherwise there are some times when life is just harder. It just is. And unless you have a laugh about it amongst people that get it, then it's going to be even more hard.

JOHN: We’ve never had, so on TikTok and things like, we only started it in April and it really took off and it's been a big surprise to us, as it has anybody and things, but we've never had one disabled person in the comments ever say, this is actually really offensive. It's only been from people who aren't disabled, which is and this isn't a boast, but we have had, because we don't know why we've had millions of views but we have had millions of views and have not one disabled person, and every now and then, I’m still like, oh, am I going to get somebody, being like, yes, I know you're married to someone disabled, but please don't actually for my disability or whatever and stuff. And they might raise a really valid point because I'm not perfect either and things, but we still not have one person say, this is actually really offensive, or this is whatever, which is quite amazing and I think it does show you, yeah, exactly like there is that resilience, I think. And again, I don't want to therefore say in the disabled community, because everyone's disability is different, but there is a resilience amongst people, I think, who have gone through things like that, where, as you said, probably not going to be the worst thing they've heard or the worst thing that they've been through.

And also, I think they can see the love in a relationship. You always joke with the people that you love most, and you'll tease the people that you're closest with, but any manner of things that might not be appropriate as a stranger. But when you know there's love, you’ll tease your brother or sister or whatever in a way you would never do a stranger because you know the relationship is safe and you know that there's love there.

And so I think that's the big part of the humour within it and things and I think people I think it's quite healing as well, isn't it? I think when you can laugh at something, it no longer has power over you. I think it's normally like something that when you can't joke about something, it's because it's still and sometimes it's raw and that's fine but I think it takes the power out of a situation when you can joke around it I guess.

JENNIE: I feel like we could just keep going on with this conversation, but I am really conscious of time. But thank you. It's been really lovely chatting to you guys. It really has. And I'm so pleased that you guys are doing so well and so many people are following you because it's important and it's needed, and we just need to be having, especially nowadays, everything's a bit doomy and gloomy we just need to be having fun. It, it's really important. 

So thank you for taking time out to chat to us. I really appreciate it. 

JOHN: Such a pleasure. Thanks so much for having us.

JADE: Thanks for having us. I’m sure we'll come on again in the future. Yeah, we'd love it.

ZOE: We’ve got much more that we want to talk to you about.

JENNIE: Thank you so much for listening. For more information, you can find us at enhancetheuk.org, on instagram @ETUKundressing, to Twitter ETUKundressing.

We look forward to seeing you soon.

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