Samantha Renke

On this episode, hosts Jennie and Zoe chat to actress, presenter, and disability activist Samantha Renke. They have a very open and honest talk about relationships, dating and intimacy.

This episode contains explicit content. 

Transcript

JENNIE: Hello and welcome to the Undressing Disability podcast, where we talk all things sex and disability. Eat with me. One of your hosts, Jennie Williams, and my lovely co host, Zoe Lloyd. We have so many exciting guests on this series and we really hope you enjoy it just as much as we do.

MUSIC

In this episode, we chat to actress, presenter, and disability activist Samantha Renke. We have a very open and honest talk about relationships, dating and intimacy.

MUSIC

JENNIE: Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Undressing Disability podcast. We have a lovely co host, Zoe. Hello, Zoe. 

ZOE: Hi.

JENNIE: And I'd like to say new guest, but an old guest, Samantha Renke. Hello. Back for a second time. 

SAMANTHA: Hello. I don't really appreciate the old, I mean...

JENNIE: Not old as in person 

SAMANTHA: Reoccurring?

JENNIE: Or like recycled?

SAMANTHA: I think that's even worse. 

ZOE: Eco friendly old Samantha.

SAMANTHA: To be honest, though, I am feeling a little bit recycled at the moment. I've got a lot of aches and pains at the moment and I'm making a lot of what I like to call Grandma noises.

No disrespect to any of the Grandma's out there, but, you know, the ahhhhh like that noises. I'm sure that was music to everyone's ears there, but yeah..

JENNIE: Confused with sex noises? 

SAMANTHA: Well, if they were my sex noises, that would explain why I'm single.

JENNIE: I don't want to know what my sex. Nobody really wants to know what sex noises are. Thank you very much. Well, no, obviously not the old, the very beautiful. And can I say, you are looking very beautiful.

Well, not only have you been a guest on us before, you are now coming on as our ambassador for the Undressing Disability Campaign. So that's fantastic. So thank you so much for doing that and what we are talking about today, because I know this is something that is close to your heart as well, is dating...

SAMANTHA: Yeah. Yes, it is. There's a lot of things on my mind about dating, and it's been a reoccurring theme for my career, I would say. And when I say career, I'm saying my career, when I moved to London in 2012, dating and disability, or more specific sex and disability, was something that was just following me around like an eggy fart.

And over the years, I've kind of really sat back and gone, how did I feel about being asked those questions? Or have I personally grown over the past decade? And where am I now? And why am I not where I thought I would be? And am I supposed to be somewhere with dating? 

So there's a lot going through my mind about dating. And I think unfortunately, whenever I've tried to speak about it in a really authentic way and be quite open, I mean, I was able to do, this is going to be a plug of my book, I was able to do that in my book 'You are the best thing since sliced bread' available now. 

I was, but I think whenever I've had opportunities to discuss dating in other spheres, so to speak, they've always been through an abled gaze and they've always been what I found to be quite sensationalist, and that is not what I'm about.

I think apart from my book where I was able to absolutely be unapologetic and talk about my dating history and my feelings and sentiments on having a disability, other than that, I've kind of never been able to take the reins and it's always been steered by very much enabled gaze. 

I'll give you an example. I think one of the first interviews that I did when I moved to London, I'm not going to say who it was for, but it was quite a big deal at the time. And I was like, wow, these people want to interview me. And then they sent me through a long, long list of questions.

There were questions like, how do you masturbate? Have you ever had sex in a chair? And although this podcast is very much about empowering people, and there's no shaming in kinks or kind of whatever you kind of feel comfortable with, and that's not what kind of put me off, but at the time I just thought, this is not benefiting disabled people, this is purely titillating, sensationalist shit for men who are probably going to go and take a wank while they're reading this newspaper on the way into work, you know what I mean? Like that. 

And I actually turned it down and that was kind of a turning point for me. And it allowed me to be a bit like, well, actually I am allowed to have a voice in the sense of I am allowed to turn down things because I don't think that they are coming from a place of doing good for my community. 

And that was quite hard, because obviously, as you can imagine, being new to London, to a city, and being new to the world of media and having a disability and having a physical disability. And that was literally back in the day where we had the 2012 Paralympics, and that was about it.

I very much felt the pressure of, oh my goodness, if I start saying no to things, will I get a black tick next to my name? So that's why right at the beginning I absolutely said yes to so many things that are now to look back at and go, oh, I felt exploited.

And I know that's a really strong term, but I think that's exactly how I was being handled by a lot of the media outlets, particularly when they wanted me to talk about relationships and sex.

Unfortunately, I don't necessarily feel like we've moved on that much. And I'm grateful now that I've got a platform, I've got kind of a voice that is less likely to be silenced by an abled or enabled gaze, I suppose. 

ZOE: Yeah. So winding back to that 2012, and you said you moved to London and then you became the voice of sex and disability.

Was that your choice? How did that even happen, that that was what you spoke about or how did you get into that media role anyway? 

SAMANTHA: No, it was ultimately, I was working, volunteering for charities, trying to find a job in the charity sector, kind of working for charities such as Scope on a voluntary basis. They effectively gave me free media training. So whenever they had a new campaign out, they would go, right, we'll get Sam to be the face of that. So to speak.

And because I started getting my face out there and people would see me pop up, because there was not many people like me popping up, I would then get journalists approaching me on Twitter or via charities or also, then when I then got my then agent, all the requests that came in were, I would say 80% of the requests were things to do with, can Sam share her story on sex and disability?

It's really weird because I think I was a bit naive and a bit oblivious to it, and I did say yes to a lot of things until that one. Just that one example I shared with you when it just was like, no, this is enough. But I did a lot of interviews.

All the cheesy magazines, like the 30 Pence magazines. There might not be 30 Pence anymore, But you know what I mean, these kind of gossip magazines. And I was always doing something about my sex life or this, that on the other. And the irony was, and a lot of them, I actually lied in a lot of them because I was sexually active, but I definitely wasn't in the same league as my non-disabled peers.

And I felt like I had to change the narrative, because we all know the narrative is that we're unlovable, we are not sexual beings, we don't have a sexual drive and all this. So I was very conscious of all the harmful stereotypes that were already out there. So, I mean, looking back to some of the articles that I did, I oversold myself and I thought, yeah, I'm having sex all the time. And the truth was I wasn't. And it wasn't necessarily because I had a disability. There was an element of that, but a lot of it was because I've grown up in a household that hasn't had positive male figures. I've been around a lot of affairs, and I've been around a lot of kind of abuse and all these kind of things. So taking my disability aside, I've just not had a good male role model in my life and that really impacted my dating game.

But I definitely wanted to create a different narrative and I wanted that narrative to be, yes, disabled people are having just as much sex as nondisabled people. And I guess I kind of did a bit in myself, probably did more damage than good in hindsight. But at that time I thought that that's what I needed to project into the world so that I wasn't having, and a lot of disabled women will probably, and men probably will concur or sympathise, particularly when you have a physical disability, the kind of infantilisation when you're out and about in a club or you'd get the high five instead of the hey, can I buy you a drink? 

So at the time I thought if I put myself out there, if I become the face of sex and disability, whether I want to or not, then maybe it might help my own dating game because it's like, well, I've not seen that article.

I'm shagging everything that moves. 

ZOE: And did it help? 

SAMANTHA: No, absolutely not. If anything, being successful I found deters a lot of men, because a lot of men, maybe they're not the right men, to be fair, but a lot of men can feel quite threatened by a feisty, independent woman. And also there's a lot of men who think that they can, I'm under four foot tall, I don't look my age, I look quite juvenile, I have definitely been preyed upon by predators in the past because of my size and stature and the way I look and actually being kind of feisty and being out there and being successful and earning your own money, that can piss off a lot of guys. So actually it's actually done the opposite.

I don't think I am any more lucky in love or less than I am I was ten years ago, if I'm completely honest. And I think that's kind of sad because one of the reasons why I wanted to become I don't want to use the word famous because that was never my intention, I kind of fell into the public sphere, but definitely become more independent. 

One of the main reasons for me wanting to be more independent, i e. living on my own in a big city, was because I wanted to prove to the opposite sex that I could provide for them that I could be a good wife, that I could don't worry, you don't need to be my carer.

I think I was quoted a lot a lot back in the day. I want a lover, not a carer. And even that's how I felt at the time. And I don't think I should feel guilty for kind of saying something like that. But now I've definitely grown and I've definitely become more self aware, and my self love is of an all time high.

So even that kind of notion is quite redundant now, because ultimately, we all need to be cared for, irrespective of who we are at some point. Just because you have a disability doesn't mean that you are going to zap the soul and energy of your partner because of your needs are so outlandish.

JENNIE: There's so much to unpack, isn't there? It's like going all the way back to kind of, right, okay, the fact that people are even asking you about masturbating and sending those questions over, where would you ever do that in any other situation? And kind of saying, okay, I'm not where I kind of thought I would be. I think a lot of us have that, don't they? Especially as women. We kind of, when we're younger, go, oh, by a certain age, we will be this, we will be married, we will be having children, we will whatever.

We put a huge amount of pressure on us. I mean, I don't know if you've seen the Barbie film, but those that have, I was just like, yes. That's how so many of us feel. 

So when it comes coming to present day, talking about dating and where you've been, this journey that you've been through for the last ten years, and like you say you are in the public eye, people do kind of know who you are and all the rest of it, do you feel like you're freely able to use dating apps? Where does that kind of fall in for you? 

SAMANTHA: No.

I'll be the first to say that I am not proactive when it comes to my dating. And what I mean by that is, and I mentioned earlier, I've got two different sides when I'm coming into dating. I've got the ableist bullshit that I get from men, and I had a sexual assault. I've been preyed upon, I've been kind of infantilised, I've been fetishized, which all in many ways can knock your self esteem. So I've got all that going on in the mix, but I've also got the safeguarding.

I've seen people in my family get hurt by men, and I've said from a very young age, that ain't going to be me. So when you bring them two elements together, it makes dating quite difficult. And also, on a practical level, everything else in my life, I'm like, come on, Sam, be proactive. Get your ass into gear. And hence why I'm successful in other aspects of my life. And then I did go through, like, a bit of a phase because I went into victim mode going, oh, no one loves me and I'm going to die alone, going to be spinster and all that.

And I think a lot of women go through that as well. So I was proactive at one point. And first of all, I was hemorhaging money left, right and centre because I didn't drive, I didn't have a power chair at the time, so I had to take taxis everywhere to go on dates. And then I went on a couple of dates and got friend zoned straight away. And then I was like, great. So I've just spent 40 quid in a taxi to get there, my meal, my drinks and then 40 quid to go home. Because obviously I'd have to find somewhere that was accessible. Don't want to go somewhere too close to my home, just in case he's a weirdo and he follows me. But all these things go for your mind. 

So I haven't been as proactive, but I did go for a phase and I think I signed up to Match.com because I was I was no you can't keep moaning, Samantha, because you're actually not doing anything about it. And I actually really despise people who do that, who kind of really like to moan but then don't want to help themselves or get help from other people. So I was like, don't be that person.

And I did put myself on dating Match.com and I think something else. But you know what? It was just horrendous. Like, the comments that I would get would range from out and out, really rude, ableless comments to just oh, you're really brave to be on here.

And I sat there and I was like, I love who I am and I've always felt more of a pressure from society to be in a relationship than me wanting the overriding urge to be in a relationship. Do I want a baby? Yes. Do I want to travel a little bit more? Yes. And those are the only probably reasons I actually want to have a partner because you know what? I am a grumpy ass bitch. I like my own space. I hate when people kind of move stuff around. I am set in my ways and I quite like that about me. And this isn't just something that's kind of come in my 30's. I've been like that since the age of 17 when all my girlfriends were getting boyfriends at college and stuff, and they're there, like, kind of spraying the boyfriend's cologne on their clothes and sniffing it.

I used to just sit there and think, oh, my God. I used to find it quite sad, and I just didn't get it. I didn't get the whole obsession with I need to have a boyfriend. And again, I think because I've been around needy women, and I just be like, why are you letting these men control you? 

Sorry, off on a tangent. So, yes, I did it. And then I thought, I'm paying for a service, so I'm paying Match.com. God knows how much it was. And I wasn't working that much at the time, so it was a big expense at the time. I am essentially paying for people to make me feel like shit because every time, and I've never been brave enough to put a full length picture of me on a dating site. And at the time, I did a lot of radio shows, and that was something that kept coming up, and there was a big debate, like, are you catfishing? Are you not? Should you just be brave enough to put yourself out there?

And I think my logic has always been, and it was really funny because I remember when I signed up to Match.com, and I like my makeup, I like my clothes, I present myself well. So I'd always put, like, a headshot on. I think after two days, I got 300 messages from men, and then I whittled it down to a few.

But as a sociologist at heart, I kind of wished I would have set up another profile and done my full length body and to see the difference. But I think that made me read even just that, made me quite angry.

I've clearly got a lot of issues that I need to unpack with men as well, because there's a lot of hurt there, which doesn't help. So I sometimes feel like I don't give them the best kind of start with me, essentially. But I do think that there is so much prejudice out there that I've gone into survival mode.

And I just do everything when it comes to dating to protect myself, because I've not really had anyone really prove otherwise. Even when I was back in High School, I'd get like, boys go out with me, but they'd say, I'll go out with you, but let's not tell anyone.

So I'd like a dirty little secret. I've had sex with married men because they were the only ones that would kind of approach me. You know, like, let's not. Let's let you be the kind of on the side kind of thing. And I was like, yes, let's do this. Because you're the only ones that are making me, validating me.

I've not gone on Tinder or anything purely because, for me, sex and my condition, I went through a phase of having one night stands, but I used to be intoxicated, and that didn't make me feel good either. So when I kind of became clean, clean living sex was difficult with my condition, particularly when you're having a one night stand. It is what it is. There's certain things I can't do, and men can be very domineering and can be quite scary in those moments if you kind of set boundaries, and that's not what they're expecting.

So I've not used any dating site that is about sex, because for me, after that sexual assault, I've kind of made it, I've been celibate, and only because I want to form a relationship with somebody rather than just have sex again, because I'm actually getting to know my body. Whereas all the times before, I won't even say that I've ever enjoyed sex because I've been so scared, because it's not being with the right person. I'd be so scared of not pleasing them or living up to a stereotype or injuring myself. 

So I get really intrusive thoughts when I'm having sex. And even, just, like, I learned something quite recently, so I've got brittle bones. It's a collagen deficiency. Obviously I'm petite statured, but I bleed every time I have sex. And I recently found out that because of the brittle bones and the way our body thinks, because of the collagen deficiency, our body works overtime because it thinks that we're broken. I've got a higher body temperature. I sweat quite a lot, but actually, even down there, even down in your vaj jay jay, some of the tissues start to go back together. So I'm like, no fucking wonder I'm bleeding every time. But I remember once, I bled once, and a guy immediately thought that I had lied to him because I'm disabled and he just taken my virginity. 

So there was just so much. There's so much that I feel like I'm probably not alone, but there's so much I feel like I've had to navigate when it comes to being intimate with someone.

I'd rather just be intimate with myself because I know myself really well and I don't have to justify or don't have to explain that, no, we can't do that, or no, let's just cuddle or let's just kiss. And then I think the thing is there are absolutely men out there and women out there, I am heterosexual, that will understand my boundaries and that's what I'm working on is being able to articulate that. 

However, so far I've not experienced a relationship, whether that's a one night stand or a relationship where the other person has listened to me, listened to my boundaries and listened to my needs or made me feel like an equal in that moment or in that relationship.

JENNIE: It's really interesting because we're talking about dating and then naturally sex comes in. So I will bring it back to dating. But a lot of the stuff that you're saying about pain I can really relate to. And I've been very lucky to have a psychosexual therapist for the last year and a half in the NHS because I have lichen sclerosis and vulvodynia and chronic bladder pain.

And there's just this psychological barrier. I mean, it's a very physical, real barrier about pain as well, but this psychological barrier. But what I didn't realise is that a lot of the education that I thought she said, right, okay, let's start talking about the vagina. Let's talking about the vulva, let's talking about the clitoris. And I was like, I know this stuff. I'm 44, I talk about sex for a living. And then she started going through it all with me and actually I was like, I don't know this stuff, I don't know. And there are so many things and so many situations that I'm putting myself in and I've put myself in that are causing more pain.

And I think it's that thing about re-educating ourselves or educating ourselves as women, especially if we've got pain conditions to not only is about setting boundaries, but actually the physicality of how our vaginas work, how our clitorises work, how our vulvas are. And that's just. I'm actually, actually understanding that.

A question I want to ask you is with dating, and I know that a lot of it, and I totally hear fact that part of you actually, you're not necessarily interested in that right now, but obviously there's a little part of you that is still because you're talking about it.

What do you think some of the dating companies out there, apps and companies, could do to make disabled people feel more kind of included and inclined to go on and use them.

SAMANTHA: For me, I remember when I was on Match.com and I basically eventually reported the abuse, and all they did was give me back my monthly subscription. And I feel like that fell short because a lot of the comments were absolutely ableist comments. 

JENNIE: What to kind of comments Sam? What kind of things did you get?

SAMANTHA: Things like, didn't know midgets could have sex, a long time ago. You got the condescending ones. It's like, oh, you're so brave to be on here. But also kind of the, well, can you fuck that if your legs don't work? Or these kind of ignorant ableist comments? And I think, so that's the first thing, I didn't feel like I was supported. And also, even when you're putting in your details, they didn't have my height option, I believe. So even things like that. And I don't even think they had things like wheelchair user. 

But I think ultimately they can add all these things. But we need a cultural shift automatically because, and I think I spoke to you about this a while back, Jennie and there was an episode of how to Get Away with Murder. And a wheelchair user man who, using a dating app, obviously it's fictional, was suing the dating app because of the algorithms. He said that he wasn't getting any dates because when he put disability or something to that effect, and he lost the case in the end because ultimately they said, you can't make people fancy someone who's disabled. That's the bottom line of it. 

So I think this is where potentially, we're at an end path, because, no, you can't. But what are we doing to showing that disabled people are lovable and sexy and desirable and worthy of love? I don't think any of the advertisements that I've seen have got anyone with a visible disability in any of their advertisement campaigns.

So I think that's a start. Where are we? Where are we seen? Also, when you're clicking on things, what about activities? I think a lot of it seemed very sport orientated at one point. I mean, I seem to be the person that attracts the guys that go, I like climbing mountains. And I'm like, good for you. I will not be doing that with you. There are people with disabilities that love to climb mountains. I am not one of those people. 

So think ultimately, are you even employing disabled people to take a look at your databases and your algorithms and how you are collecting data. I think that's where they need to start focusing on. And also have sanctions like social media platforms have ways of ensuring that people who are ableist or racist or homophobic, they are taken off there straight away. There needs to be a zero tolerance. And I think when we're talking about ableism, we still don't see it or validate it as much as we do as the other isms. And I think that's a big thing as well.

I think when we're talking about disability, it's more like, well, it's a preference. It's like, well, is it, though? Because you're just assuming, hence again, why I haven't shown my wheelchair. Because on something where you can just swipe away, it would take somebody very special, and obviously, I'd love to wait for that, someone who is very special or somebody who isn't as ignorant.
 
But I think also this kind of fascination with sex and disability. A lot of my non-disabled girlfriends get unsolicited pictures and all these kind of things. But I think for me, it's like, why do we automatically equate having been in a wheelchair, and that's my situation, with not being able to have sex. And I kind of sympathise weirdly, because actually, I have never had a conversation about sex, me having sex. No one's ever had that conversation. Never doctors, never anyone. I've learned from other people who've got my same condition. And to be quite honest, there's a few people with the same condition as me who are similar stature to me who have got husbands or partners, and maybe I should reach out to them a bit more.

But equally, I don't know them in person. It's more from social media, but I'm inquisitive. I'm like, well, hang on a minute. Let me know, tell me, because actually, I find that, iIll give you an example, men with short penises are problematic for me because I can't bend in different situations. So if I can't get close enough to it, then it's difficult. So actually, the irony is having a longer penis, even though I am petite, is easier, particularly when I'm lying on my side.

And all these kind of things that we're just not having conversations about, I had to kind of learn through trial and error. And unfortunately, it's not necessarily been good for my soul because, like I said, I was abusing substances to have sex. I was very much exploring my body or exploring my sexuality in a dangerous way. And let's say it is a dangerous way because no one would speak to me about it. Sorry, I've gone off on a tangent there, but, yeah, you kind of get my drift. 

ZOE: Yeah, I think you're right, though. That happened with me. I was only ever asked about sex once in my early 20's by an occupational therapist and I was not ready to talk about it.

And I was like, I don't know her. I wasn't there mentally. And then no one talked to me about it ever. And then I brought it up once with my consultant, actually, it was just a funny story and I sort of mentioned it because I'd injured my knee. And then she was like, how did you do that then?

And I went and I told her this little story and she was so embarrassed she couldn't handle it. And I thought, oh, isn't that funny? I've known you for 20 odd years now. We talk really casually about things, but you say the sex word and she was like, oh, gosh, how do I deal with that?

So I definitely think you're right there, that it needs to change culturally amongst medical people just to make it a norm that they're talking about that we can learn and we can also teach them because they're not going to know, are they really? 

SAMANTHA: Absolutely. 

JENNIE: Well, I think it comes back down to what we always say, and that's the thing that we do under the Undressing campaign is education is key. Right? So we need to be educating nondisabled people as well as we need to be educating disabled people as well of what we can do and what we can't do. And I think it's interesting because you hear the word safeguarding and that's like, it's slapped on so many disabled people, isn't it? Like, got to safeguard, got to safeguard. And actually, it's about looking at the least restricted option rather than the most restricted. 

But sometimes we as disabled people end up overly safeguarding ourselves, sometimes to protect ourselves and then not letting that happen I think this is a really good start to having these conversations. And I think, going right back to the beginning, Sam, like, hats off to you for being so honest about saying, do you know what? I kind of lied at the beginning. I kind of, like, hammed it up because actually I wanted to project this persona about myself. And it's not just a thing when you're in the public eye, when there's not that many of you and there's not that many disabled people in the public eye, you have the weight on your shoulders to represent lots of other disabled people.

So it's like, look at me, I'm out there, I'm having all the sex. It's amazing. It's amazing. And you feel like you've got to really put that out. So I understand that pressure. Even as a CEO of a charity, I talk about this for a living, I'm not sexually active at the moment, so I'm talking about it all the time. But the reality of my private life actually is really quite different. And pain is a very real thing. So we have to put on these personas a little bit you know. 

ZOE: I was just going to say, I was really pleased, Sam, that you said that about having to present this narrative, because in one way can totally see that, yes, you've got that responsibility on you. And it probably did do a lot of good to make people change their perceptions.

However, I'm really glad you mentioned that because, say, when you were on telly, I might have been in a time of my life of going, oh God, is it going to happen for me? How do I feel about this? And then thinking, oh, she's all right. How come she can do it and I can't?

So sometimes when we're putting forward that really positive story, it's great, but also sometimes to the detriment of someone else sitting at home going, this isn't happening for me. How come she can do it? So it's so nice to hear from you, the real experiences. 

And I think that's what we have to be really responsible about, that we are always sharing those vulnerabilities because that's where most people will learn and go, okay, right. I get my confidence. She did go through that as well. It didn't just click easily for her because I definitely know, I mean, let's face it, most of the people that are the disability advocates online are confident by nature of what they are, and they're talking about all the good stuff.

And then we're hearing the other side through the Undressing Disability and the Love Lounge, the really negative side of the people feeling really helpless. And it's a really hard balance to get, isn't it? So I think the people that are positive, it's really useful also for them to express the vulnerabilities and the challenges they've gone through just to sort of give that honest narrative.

SAMANTHA: Yeah. And I think even looking back, all the people that interviewed me, a lot of them were white, non-disabled males or there was never a disabled person interviewing me. But I think even then, that put me already on this level of, oh, my God, I need to dispel any of their kind of, I didn't want to be doing an interview and then turn around, go bless her, that kind of thing.

So I felt like I had that fight in me. And like I said, it was really difficult balance because when I got a lot of abuse online when I first started my career, and also even that was playing on my mind, like, okay, so am I either a slut or am I an undesirable freak?

ZOE: Yeah, absolutely.

SAMANTHA: Which way do I want to be? At the time I wanted to be a slut?

ZOE: I'd have definitely chosen exactly what you did. Absolutely. Because you're like, I am part of you. I'm part of your tribe. We don't want to make ourselves other any more than we are.

So if you're sat there going, oh, I'm a virgin and no one fancies me and I can't, well, then they're going to pity you. And that's like the thing that we ultimately don't want, isn't it? So, yeah, of course you go, yeah, no, of course. All the same. Yeah, I can date and I can have sex.

Yeah.

It's so difficult. It's a real, real dichotomy. 

SAMANTHA: Yeah. And I think I'm glad I went in on that approach because it got me that sensationalist. It led on to more interviews, it led on to more opportunities, and it got me to a place now where I'm able to do an interview podcast like this, where I am completely truthful and just like, wow, this is where I have started because I think I got my foot in the door, so to speak, or my wheel in the door, so to speak, I guess.

And I think that is a powerful message because I feel like we're still having to do that. We're still having to mask and code switch, essentially, to get our feet in the door to then be really honest, because I actually think if I were to have said in those interviews, this is a reality. I've slept with, like, eight people. I don't like sex. It scares me. I have a lot of pain. But actually it's because family members have proper fucked me up. You know what I mean? 

They didn't really want that. They wanted either a slut or a violent sob story. They didn't want the reality. They actually didn't want me to be more human. They didn't want me to be relatable because everyone can relate to a parent, a sister, someone in their family having an abusive relationship or being treated shitty by the opposite sex.

That's relatable. That's universal, Isn't it? They didn't want that. They wanted something. 

ZOE: USP.

JENNIE: Well, I think this is the thing and kind of like bringing this conversation to a conclusion. And it's like we want to change that, don't we? So it's never this narrative of sensationalism. It's just like, why would I want to interview about sex? That's boring. Because it's boring me this narrative about sex. And the whole reason that you set up a charity, hopefully, is that you don't really need to exist. And the whole point is people say, where do you want to see yourself in 20 years with Enhance? Well that we don't need to exist anymore. We don't need to fight for this anymore.

And I think as three very sexy single ladies that we are, I think it's about educating as much as we can with our professional hats on and keep doing the work that we're doing and talking to the dating apps and trying to make them more accessible, but equally just being open and honest with each other as friends and peers about the troubles and the laughters and the funny stories and keep supporting each other as much as we can, the good and the bad.

And that's like all we can do, really. And like attracts like. And it's nice to be able to talk about it with no judgement, isn't it? And no shame and it being relatable to each other.

ZOE: Definitely. And like you say, like attracts like. I think then the right men will come along or whatever gender. Yeah, will come along. If you're being true, then they'll be true, won't they. 

JENNIE: Absolutely. So, look, Sam, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on again.

And I think we want to keep having these conversations. And certainly we're going to dig in deep with this campaign that we're running on dating as well. 

And then maybe you could come on in like six months, or a years time or something, and you can tell us some...we're going to set you some challenges, maybe dating challenges. We all need dating challenges to be set. That'd be quite funny. See, if we go on a date how many times, we can get the word gherkin in? Something random.

 But anyway, thank you so much, Sam, and we'll definitely be catching up with you soon. 

SAMANTHA: Thank you for having me everyone 

ZOE: Thanks Sam.